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Archived discussions: 1


Updating the HeldItems template to support Legends Arceus

Any chance that the HeldItems template could be updated to support Legends Arceus? I am willing to at least make a dent in adding the info to the pages that need adding, but I cannot do that if the template doesn't support it. From the look of things, it seems like it'd be a pretty easy thing to do with a copy/paste and changing text where needed. I'm not a template expert though. -PancakeIdentity (talk) 00:13, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing attention to this. I've added Legends: Arceus and (for when the time comes) Scarlet & Violet to the {{HeldItems}} template. I hope this helps! - bthrussellUK (talk) 21:36, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, it does! I'm wondering how we want to handle the more robust dropped item system in this game. Almost every pokemon has multiple items it can drop, and both can drop at the same time. In addition, each pokemon has different drops if its an alpha, it can drop grit if it's defeated in battle, and it can drop aguav berries if caught/defeated from a berry outbreak in a massive mass outbreak. I don't know if the current template is built to handle this complexity. Could we possibly add a new template with sections for regular drops and alpha drops. Should we bother listing the grit/aguav berry drops, considering they're independent from the species itself? -PancakeIdentity (talk) 09:12, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Isn't that what is, at least partially, handled by this page?--Rocket Grunt 10:11, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
That doesn't show odds or alpha drops. -PancakeIdentity (talk) 18:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
We're going to look into this further. The template is frankly a mess right now, so may require a rebuild, so we're going to look into how to intergrate the dropped items from Legends: Arceus, or whether they'd be better off with their own solution. - bthrussellUK (talk) 20:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you! Once the time comes, lemme know! I have all the drop rate info (not sourced from any other fan site), so I can do the grunt work of actually getting stuff onto pages once it comes. Just for my input, I also wonder if the technical difference between "held" and "dropped" items may warrant Arceus info having its own solution? -PancakeIdentity (talk) 06:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Question regarding game information not obtainable in normal gameplay

I recently added a couple of bits of trivia regarding Z-moves (that no NPC can use an Exclusive Z-Move, and that if they try, the game will crash, although this is not observable in normal gameplay as one needs to use a hacking device to make that happen) to the Z-move page. Another editor removed the latter bit, remarking that it was removed because it involved hacking.

I had looked around for rules regarding trivia about the games and their structure that could not be observed without using hacking devices or glitches, and could not find any, so I assumed that such was ok - is there a page in the manual of style that I missed, or is this an part of an unspoken guideline I should be aware of (like, I'm not complaining if it is, I just don't want to step on any toes)?

ABZB (talk) 18:24, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I asked about the edit in the Bulbagarden Discord server and a non-Staff member said "'If the game does something it isn't supposed to, it crashes'. It just means something was not programmed into the game because it is never supposed to happen. Don't think it's notable." which a staff member reacted to in agreement and another responded with "The first part that no NPC uses those items might be fine though". That doesn't point to a policy or anything, but I felt I should explain how I came to make that edit. Exempt-Medic (talk) 18:56, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Understood. I found it interesting because of the exact timing at which it crashes - at the very end of the entire sequence, when the camera focuses back on the Pokemon that performed the move, right before the background reverts from the Z-move backdrop to the regular field - as far as I can tell with the currently limited tools available, the game is probably trying to call some animation or other model-thing related to the Trainer that initiated the Z-move that NPC trainers do not have (which seems unlikely, I can't imagine what that could be, but the timing and freeze suggests that the most strongly), leading to the game freezing. I had previously wondered if they were not included because GF ran into some difficult bug that they ran out of time to fix, or if they simply did not include it for gameplay balance reasons - that the entire thing works except for the mentioned freeze gives some weight to the "hard bug" thing. We probably won't find any more depth to that until 3DS coding and decompiling advance... I didn't put in the whole explanation because hardware/programming heavy trivia is very uncommon here, probably because we avoid emulation/ROM stuff in general, so I figured it was a bad idea to reference... - unsigned comment from ABZB (talkcontribs)
Yeah a game breaking when forced to do something it's not supposed to really isn't particularly surprising or notable. Landfish7 23:09, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

New learnset templates

Greetings!

I have made a couple of posts about revamping the move pages earlier this year. You can find them here and here. Since then, Bfdifan2006 and I have been working on the implementation of these suggestions. To keep this short, I won't reiterate everything.

We propose two new templates: a new header and a new entry template for moves. You can see what their implementation would look like here. There is also a tutorial page on how to use the new header.

Our goal with this measure is not only future-proofing, but also decluttering and the shortening of pages. That is why we also propose the merger of the TM/TR and the Tutor sections. Since a move can only be one of these three within a game, it's a perfect solution and the template accommodates all possible game combinations. Incredible help for mobile users, who would no longer have to scroll for ages to find out whether their Infernape could learn Drain Punch or not.

I am willing to do 100% of the manual implementation of myself (though coordinated help is appreciated). Since the new templates wouldn't be compatible with the old code, some editing is required. I would start with the level-up learnsets, then move on to merging the TM and Tutoring sections. The breeding sections would remain separate. Considering I helped with updating the learnsets during the release of SwSh and LA, I hope that my commitment is taken seriously. It is a big job, but I am confident it can be finished before the release of SV.

Please note: we'd like to implement an "All Forms" note for Pokémon like Wormadam (it would have all three artworks in the template), Shaymin, etc. Essentially for Pokémon whose forms have almost identical movesets. This would need separate approval, and I would like to hear the admins' opinion on it. This is not urgent and can be implemented after everything else. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 21:12, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Italic game titles

I'd like to suggest using italics conforming to more standard rules in all articles. Maybe a bit more like Wikipedia?

Game titles:

  • Pokémon Scarlet
  • Pokémon Violet
  • Pokémon Scarlet and Violet

I suggest also formatting anime episode titles and manga round titles with quotation marks and no italics.

Examples:

In "Pokémon Emergency!", Ash used his Pokédex to confirm his identity.

In "A Glimpse of the Glow", Red and Blue saw Mew.

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 22:06, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion, it should stay the way it has been for anime episode and manga round titles. I'll abstain on the topic of game titles. --Bfdifan2006 (T/C) 08:41, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
I agree with the game titles. It's bothered me for a while, and many other wikis format titles in italics, so I don't see why Bulbapedia shouldn't do the same. Inkster (talk) 19:54, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Well we aren't other wikis so we can and do have our own style. Not saying I disagree with the proposal though. Landfish7 22:40, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but sometimes it bothers me a bit that Bulbapedia appears to be the odd one out which does not use italic game titles. Even the other NIWA wikis (which are affiliated to Bulbapedia) use italic titles like Super Mario Land, Super Metroid, and Kirby Star Allies, right? So I wonder why we are not using Pokémon Red, Pokémon Diamond, etc.
Personally, the current situation means that I need to actively remember not to italicize game titles when editing Bulbapedia, when compared to editing/reading other wikis.
I don't suppose the idea of using non-italic game titles was something decided on purpose, right? Is there any discussion with people saying: "Hey, Bulbapedia, I think we should have some non-italic game titles", "Oh that's perfect, non-italic works fine for those games", "We are better than all those other wikis that use italic game titles, since non-italic is clearly the best option"
Or maybe people just didn't discuss anything. Maybe we just wrote some non-italic game titles and didn't bother to "fix" them, and somehow we ended up with a "tradition" of using non-italic.
It could be just me, but my opinion is this: The non-italic game titles look unprofessional. They don't seem to have an actual deliberate style choice; instead, they just appear to be lacking some formatting. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
I think this should be done as there are titles like "Let's go Eevee" which look like a sentence and may confuse while reading it as a part of a real sentence. This should be easy to fix as there are already used templates for links to game articles.--Rocket Grunt 10:24, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Updating Tables for Scarlet/Violet Encounters

Hello! I'm interested in adding encounter tables to Bulbapedia based on extracted data with rarity chances, biome, and areas for each route. Since Pokemon in S/V have rarities, as well as biomes they spawn in within an area, would it be possible to add an encounter table template in a format similar to this?

Pokemon | Biome | Rarity

If there are other ideas for how to categorize encounter info, please discuss! I'm new to editing and would love to help in any way possible. - unsigned comment from HeirOfHeart (talkcontribs)

Can I wright about the Pokémon's in-game behavior

Can I wright about the Pokémon's in-game behavior? If so, where would I do that? Chickoritaboy11 (talk) 02:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

In the biology section, usually.--ForceFire 05:20, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I was just reading the game descriptions...?

Do we really need to have what's essentially a game walkthrough in the Plot section? Not all pages do this, but some do it, like Pokemon Gold and Silver and Pokemon Diamond and Pearl. Step93 (talk) 20:13, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree. In particular, the HMs and Gym Leaders don't really need to be mentioned except where relevant to the plot. I've also started a discussion about this on the Bulbagarden Discord. Thanks for bringing this up! Landfish7 02:52, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Pokemon researching

there should be a small article on the scroll cynthias grandmother shows you, i am researching legendary pokemon and things like this would really help others like meHsukhr22 (talk) 17:06, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Locationdex

Can we include better images for places on locationdex, for example, the only picture of skycpillar is when its viewed from front, instead we should have a transparant backround, with all sided sprite images.Hsukhr22 (talk) 17:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Research

I might be able to finish some of my research and submit it in an article.Hsukhr22 (talk) 17:18, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Pokemon research

The only explanation for the fact that you can find the three regis in hoenn, sinnoh and galar(plz notify if u can find in other reigons too) is that the regi tombs are actually seperate dimensions, and regigigas is also in its own dimension. These places consist of the regi tombs and even the inside of snowpoint temple!, without the portal they are just empty!. Since the people of olden times couldnt actually do this they must have asked arceus to help them, or in the very least tricked him into doing so, (arceus CAN be tricked as shown in the movie arceus and the jewel of life.)Hsukhr22 (talk) 11:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Pokémon Garden.

Should we create a page on the obscure Pokémon Garden?

It was recently featured in a Did You Know Gaming video. - unsigned comment from RequiemOfLostSouls (talkcontribs)

Yes! We should. Maybe it would help bring some attention to the preservation efforts. (Maybe we can also find some official sources on the archives of the official website) MaverickNate 14:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Shiny color changes in Biology section

Should we add the color changes of a Shiny Pokémon in their Biology section? ThePokéNerd1996 (talk) 22:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the main problem is that the Shinies changes so much. Landfish7 23:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Article titles: X in the Pokémon world

It seems we currently have 13 articles (non-redirects) with the wording "in the Pokémon world" or "of the Pokémon world" like this:

I wonder if that part can be removed so at least some articles would look like this:

Basically, if we just remove the "in the Pokémon world" and the preceding space, this would save typing 21 characters (22 if you count typing the accent).

Maybe this applies to some cases and not others, but the "in the Pokémon world" can be considered redundant if it's already obvious that we are talking about the Pokémon world.

You know, this wording "in the Pokémon world" is not really present in all the possible article titles where it could be. Shouldn't we have some kind of consistent rule? For instance, if we keep this wording, should Human, Television, and Weather be moved to Humans in the Pokémon world, Television in the Pokémon world, and Weather in the Pokémon world as well?

I talked a bit with other admins about this. If I understand correctly, one argument for keeping that "in the Pokémon world" wording would be to tell the difference between in-universe and real-life perspectives. So we have Pokémon movie for the movies made in real-life about Pokémon, and Movies in the Pokémon world for the movies created in-universe.

Similarly, it seems we have Death in the Pokémon world instead of a Death article because we are not going to actually write text explaining real-life deaths. In this case, this makes sure the article is only about the in-universe perspective. On the other hand, I would argue that the "Death" title would probably still be OK and it would not require content about real-life deaths anyway. You know, we have Human instead of Humans in the Pokémon world, and this article is still about in-universe humans.

In any case, there's a problem about the subject of ghosts. It seems that people would normally expect the page title Ghost to be about the Ghost (type), right? In that case, it appears we are not going to use the article title Ghost to talk about all kinds of unrelated ghosts like the current article Ghosts in the Pokémon world.

There's a minor recurring anime character named Flora. I would suggest perhaps using the article title Flora to explain the plants and Flora (anime) for the character. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

"Ghosts in the Pokémon world" I think is essential for disambiguation purposes. As you noted, Ghost is primarily going to refer to the Ghost (type). (Ghost should probably be a redirect and the current page moved to Ghost (disambiguation), but that's a different matter.) I don't think there's any dabtag we could create (e.g. the proposed "general") that would be as immediately clear as to what the topic of the page is as the current title.
I think in the case of topics where the titles would make more sense as referring to real-world concepts (Radio, Television, Magazines, Movies), it does make sense to include the "in the Pokémon world" qualifier. The main page titles probably should either be articles about the real-world concept, or a disambig page that includes a link to a page about the real-world concept.
I don't think this same disambiguation is necessary for cases like the transportation articles or weather. (Perhaps you could argue that Pokémon-branded planes could be an expected topic on the air transportation page, but my feeling is that in-universe content is more likely to be the expected result, and we can handle that kind of thing via hatnote.) Weaponry, death and illness I lean weakly towards dropping "in the Pokémon world", since it's fairly clear those refer to in-universe concepts.
I can see the argument that we should handle human, animals and flora in similar ways. However, I feel like the distinction here is that "Human" is a term actually used in the Pokémon world, whereas "animals" and "flora" are descriptive titles, so it makes more sense to qualify them with "in the Pokémon world". I could see an argument for moving Flora to Flora (anime) and redirecting Flora to Flora of the Pokémon world, but I don't think it would make sense to rename that page to Flora. (Also, I think Flora of the Pokémon world should be renamed Flora in the Pokémon world for consistency.) --SnorlaxMonster 07:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Italics

Please let's write video game titles in italics like Pokémon Scarlet and Violet (instead of non-italics like Pokémon Scarlet and Violet).

As far as I can tell, Pokémon official media (including Pokémon.com, also also the game manuals and boxes) have been consistently using italics game titles from HeartGold and SoulSilver onwards.

Examples of official text:

  • "Various language versions of Pokémon Black 2, Pokémon White 2, Pokémon Black, and Pokémon White can communicate, battle, and trade with one another." (manual of Pokémon Black 2 and White 2, page 4)
  • "This is Pokémon Omega Ruby. The types and likelihood of Pokémon that will appear differ from Pokémon Alpha Sapphire." (back of the box of Pokémon Omega Ruby)

At some point I added a bit of information about the italics game titles in Core series#Terminology.

Wikipedia does it like this: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles of works. I know we don't need to do everything like Wikipedia, but this page also notes "These cases are well-established conventions recognized in most style guides."

Bulbapedia is the only NIWA wiki that does not use italics for game titles, right? The italics game titles are used by Mario wiki, Kirby wiki, Metroid wiki, Smash wiki, etc. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 03:48, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I would agree that we should have included this in the manual of style when setting up the wiki, as it is a convention that makes sense and is followed on other wikis. Unfortunately, nearly 24 years have passed since the wiki was opened, and we currently have 52,471 articles, a large portion of which are going to include at least one game title somewhere in the text. Changing it now would be a massive undertaking, and even using bots wouldn't be a great idea, as there are going to be exceptions that we would want to make (e.g. within templates) that are too nuanced for bots to handle. If you can figure out a way for us to easily update every instance of a game title on the wiki, then we can look into this further, but at the moment it will have to stay in the "maybe someday" pile. - bthrussellUK (talk) 22:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
I see. Well, maybe we could start by making sure all pages like Pokémon Emerald Version had their titles in italics using "DISPLAYTITLE".
Another thing to do would be italicizing templates like Template:game and Template:game2 which are used to link to game titles in running text. But unfortunately, if we italicized those templates at the moment, it would cause some inconsistency with game titles outside templates which would still not be italicized in running text until they are edited too.
Maybe we should also consider not using the exact syntax {{game|Red and Blue|s}} anymore, because it might be convenient to use some other kind of template that leaves the "and" non-italicized. In this case, we would have: Pokémon Scarlet and Violet.
Okay, so there are dozens of thousands of existing pages. Personally, I wonder how many pages I would be able to edit for this project. I would like to suggest that at least some of the pages might be edited by bots in some circumstances. Maybe in some cases, we might be able to use some semi-automated edits like AWB.
If we start this project and italicize game titles, I suppose we should also be able to "search" the wiki by creating lists of pages using AWB, for the purpose of checking how many of them seem to be still using non-italics game titles. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

About the page titles like Red (game), Blue (game), etc.

A few related discussions which were created in December 2023:

As discussed in those separate talk pages, I think we can at least agree that these four specific page titles look like they are about games but they are actually about game characters: Red (game), Blue (game), Green (game), and Silver (game). Relatedly, Gold (game) and Crystal (game) look like they are about games but they are redirects to character pages.

Some different ideas for page titles have been discussed, like this:

  • Red (game)
  • Red (video game character)
  • Red (game character)
  • Red (character)

In the talk pages linked above, I originally suggested using the long version (video game character). However, we also discussed using (game character) instead, which is shorter and appears to be just as clear.

You know, it has sometimes been argued that just (character) is not good enough since a number of other characters named share those names: "Blue (character)" could be about Blue (Adventures), Blue (Origins), Blue (Ruby-Sapphire), and Blue (Pocket Monsters). However, there is also the possible argument that (game) and (game character) are not entirely accurate because those pages also contain counterparts from other media.

For instance, Red (game) is currently the main page with information about Red as the character from the Pocket Monsters HGSS Jō's Big Adventure manga or from the Pokémon Evolutions anime series. Maybe that could be a point in favor of using "Red (character)" since that would be the main place to look for Red and his counterparts, much like Misty is mainly about the game character but is the main page for a bunch of her counterparts as well.

Several other characters currently use (game) but they are not exactly named after games, like Ethan (game), Rosa (game), Calem (game), Elio (game), and so on. In this case, I would suggest removing (game) altogether and moving them simply to "Ethan", "Rosa", "Calem", "Elio", etc. whenever possible. They arguably don't need any kind of disambiguation like (game character). --Daniel Carrero (talk) 02:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

God yes, I'm in support of "Red (character)" for these types of pages. Tacking off the parenthesizes in general would make things so much easier too. Characters like Red should have the (character) around it simply because it shares the name with other topics, characters like Selene don't. However I would also like to bring up that this isn't just a problem with the human characters as well, but also certain Pokemon characters such as Ogerpon or Necrozma as well who have a Ogerpon (species) and Ogerpon (game). The {game) tag for those characters always bugged me as if I'm only looking up info on the species in terms of the games, not a specific character found in the games. TrainerSplash (talk) 05:18, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Yes, I see the point that the page title Ogerpon (game) looks like it's about the species in terms of games.
In the case of Necrozma (game), I would also suggest that the (game) is not entirely accurate, much like Red (game) mentioned above. I find it a bit odd that (game) is explicitly in the title but the page also contains information about Necrozma's appearance in the Pokémon Evolutions anime. To be fair, I know that this page is mainly about the game version and that the Evolutions version was directly based on the game version. I suppose Necrozma (game and Evolutions) would be too long for a title. lol
I also find it interesting that Barry is currently named "Barry (game)" but a bunch of other rivals don't have (game). Some page titles for rivals are just Wally, Hugh, Tierno, Shauna, Hau, Nemona, etc. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Since this involves changing the manual of style, and all the implications of a widesweeping change for something like this, it's not really something we can simply change independent of the style guidelines that have been in place since the wiki began. It's not enough to just nominate them all and see what happens, as changes to the manual of style have to be workshopped and all the consequences planned for. MaverickNate 08:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh well, maybe we can try to discuss some additional details about this project.
If we start using (character) for Red (character), Blue (character), Green (character), and Silver (character), then a new template like {{char}} can link to them. Once this is done, we can change all instances like {{ga|Red}} into {{char|Red}} by bot.
One thing that makes this easier to implement is that several of the other affected pages already have the titles without (game) as redirects: Leaf, Kris, Brendan, Lucas, Hilbert, Hilda, Nate, Rosa, Calem, Elio, Selene, Chase, Elaine, Gloria, Florian, and Juliana.
Some pages without (game) are disambiguation pages: Ethan, Lyra, May, Dawn, Barry, Serena, Trace, Victor, Rei, Akari. I think we can probably delete most if not all of the existing disambiguation pages and replace them by hatnotes, since those disambiguation pages are very short and they mostly point back to the same character, and possibly a Masters or anime version.
The page Rei is a disambiguation currently pointing to four links unrelated to each other, so maybe that can be moved to "Rei (disambiguation)".
Trace (game) is currently for the rival character but there is also an Ability named Trace. Is the rival character important enough to have the main name "Trace" without parentheses? Another idea would be using "Trace (character)" like the "Red (character)" mentioned above.
The Bulbapedia:Manual of style#Disambiguation section currently says something that seems to be wrong. It claims that all games and game characters should have (game), much like all Pokémon species have (Pokémon). So basically it seems that all Gym Leaders, Elite Four, Champions, other NPCs, etc. would have (game) as per this policy, like "Sabrina (game)", "Lance (game)", "Lana (game)", etc. Not to mention all game titles would have (game) too, like "Pokémon Scarlet and Violet (game)". I know that we don't really do this kind of thing, so maybe we should talk about changing this part of the manual of style.
Fortunately, the manual of style also says this at the top, which gives us a bit more freedom to follow actual usage rather than the exact rules: "Note, however, that this document is not updated frequently; survey prevailing conventions as well as reading these guidelines." --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
The manual of style's disambiguation section starts off with "When two subjects would have the same article title, ..." so I don't think it's saying all game articles need to be dabtagged. (Reading the second paragraph, it seems that only Pokémon and moves currently explicitly require a dabtag per the manual of style.) I don't think there's any conflict with the proposed moves of, say, Calem or Elio. Nescientist (talk) 16:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
If you're saying that, I wonder if there's a bit of ambiguity in this part:
"In some cases, a disambiguating term is used for all pages of the same type, such as Pokémon and moves. Common disambiguations have templates to make linking them easier. A sample of these follows: [...] game An article for a game, or a character from a game, for example, Silver (game). Short link: {{game}}"
Arguably there are two different ways to see this:
  • "A sample of these follows" is located in the same paragraph as "In some cases, a disambiguating term is used for all pages of the same type," so this appears to be the section explicitly saying that all Pokémon species should have (Pokémon), all moves should have (move), all types should have (type), and all TCG stuff should have (TCG). This section also uses exactly the same wording to claim that all games and game characters should have (game) even though that is not something we really do.
  • Or alternatively, we could try to make the point that "A sample of these follows" is just about "Common disambiguations have templates" so this is simply a list of link templates with no ruling about using them or not.
At the very least, if we rename Silver (game) to Silver (character), then the manual of style would need to be edited because it uses Silver (game) as an example of a character with (game). Not to mention the general idea of removing (game) from all characters, which if implemented would affect the manual of style as well. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:51, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
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