Talk:Lenora

Before anyone asks

Please don't remove what I have hidden. Some of it is speculation (come on, how could she not be a Grass-type Gym Leader with a name like Aloe?) but the rest is just there because it will inevitably need to be added, and this way it can just be unhidden.--PhantomJunkie 06:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Aren't all Gym Leaders in Japan named after names of plants, usually with a pun about which type they train? --Andy^P_K^M_N 13:25, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

True enough. (I actually hadn't really looked at the meanings of the Japanese Gym Leader's names before this, so I learned something new. xD) I still think she's going to be a Grass-type Gym Leader, but I guess we will just have to see.--PhantomJunkie 16:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Natural-born proprietress?

Maybe my Japanese is rusty, but how does ママ translate to proprietress? --Transfinite | Talk 05:49, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

It just... does? And considering Aloe owns the museum, I believe that was the meaning that was intended. 梅子^❀_✿ 18:26, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I did some searching through some Japanese dictionaries and apparently the definition that refers to a proprietress comes from "madame," if that's what you're asking. 梅子^❀_✿ 18:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

It is only your guess even if it is right. inappropriate. --Klobis 02:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Uhhh, the Leader title is in English Katakana. It doesn't make sense to translate the 'mama' as a Japanese word. If it was Japanese words for "natural" and "born", it'd make sense... but it's not, so it doesn't. Lissie 10:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, fine, I give up. You guys can pretend you know anything about translation and completely disregard my experience. I don't even care anymore. 梅子^❀_✿ 19:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

And why are you chiding us? I didn't mean anything personal. I don't know honestly why you translated 'mama' from a phrase in English katakana as a Japanese word to mean 'proprietress' which is why I challenged it. I am not disregarding your experience nor doubting your skills in Japanese, that wasn't my intention, but it seemed like a silly translations, and honestly, it really was. Lissie 02:26, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I've lived in Japan for 6 years, and I have to concur that "mama" is not a substitute word for "proprietress", even if occasionally a woman running a restaurant or such might be called "mama" by some of her workers, that is quite obviously not what they were getting at here as they added "natural born" in front of it. She might run the museum but it's not her title. Sunyshore 02:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Her Pokémon

I watched a walktrough, she has the following pokémon:

• Haderia (Female, level 18)
• Miruhog (Female, level 20)

Just those two. Should I add them? DeadUniverse ^Hello! 18:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Uh, sorry, just noticed the [show] button. DeadUniverse ^Hello! 18:58, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

"Mammy"

Though Nintendo may not have known it at the time, there is no doubt that Aloe's original designed resembled a mammy. She even refers to herself as "mama," which is the origin of the word mammy. Nintendo changed Jynx's design because it resembled a woman in blackface, so it's not unreasonable to see why they changed Aloe's design. Fare la Volpe 02:13, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but that's kinda speculation Ataro 02:19, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not really a change, though; it's just a change in pose. If you look closely, she's still wearing all the same things. It's just in the newer art, her apron's slung over her shoulder instead of her wearing it. Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 02:20, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

African-American

After seeing that trivia removed (and rightly, as it's extremely debatable), I felt I ought to point out something regarding characters' ethnicity. That being: if it is discussed at all, we should be extremely careful what terminology we use. "African-American" is predicated by there being an Africa or an America by those names in any official material. America we can assume, thanks to Lt. Surge's title, but Africa is far less confirmable. It would be better to discuss skin-tone, although that's less specific and voids pretty much any trivia. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. --Andy^P_K^M_N 20:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't Africa mentioned in an early PokeDex entry for Mew?- unsigned comment from Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

It doesn't really matter if it did..Ataro 02:14, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention that's South America you're thinking of. —darklordtrom 06:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

"African-American" is clearly assuming too much. But what would be wrong with noting that she is the first "black" Gym Leader? It's neither offensive nor assuming more than we know. -Damien Nightstar 19:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Damien Nightstar saying she's african american is assuming way too much. Is there any proof? Also there not in America there in Unova there for saying "African American" is not correct. Unless there's proof just use the skin color. We don't want a repeat of the Iris incident Pokemaster97 20:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I wish I knew why mentioning skin color matters. It's obvious that her skin is darker than the other characters. Why do we need to point it out? Should we say Misty is the first white Gym Leader while we're at it? --ケンジのガール 04:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Misty? You mean Brock....Ataro 05:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

He doesn't look white to me. --ケンジのガール 06:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

And even then, what defines first? First to be known, that would be Iris. But Aloe was known to be a Gym Leader first, so does that make her first? Or does Aloe being second on the badge case make her come before Iris, who is eighth? Regardless, African American should not be used at all unless referring to real people. I don't think we should assume nationality unless it is explicitly stated, such as Lt. Surge and Fantina. And this kind of trivia really isn't needed. --SnorlaxMonster 07:03, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

When was Fantina's country of origin ever actually specified? Yes, she was speaking French before the battle with her, but that does not mean she is actually from France. For the record, she could have been a Quebec Canadian, she could have been from Haiti, heck, she could have just as easily have been from West African countries, as there is absolutely nothing to indicate that she's from France besides language. Weedle Mchairybug 23:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it was specified, but I'm going to have to look for a bit to find it. Too bad there isn't a fame checker in Gen IV, that would make it so much easier. --SnorlaxMonster 01:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

If anything Fantina's probably from Unova. She littered her speech with English in the Japanese version. Though I guess you could argue in the English version that Lt. Surge is French too due to the Pikachu from his home country being French... Bluesun 00:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Why mention hair and eye color, if mentioning skin tone is irrelevant? Feigning color blindness of skin doesn't do anything as far as fighting racist intentions, it's fighting "ignorance with more ignorance". If people are worried about saying "Africa" as far as whether or not it exists in pokemon world just state she's one of only a few darker toned people in the known pokemon world. There are negative stereotypes about red hair too but no one's all hush-hush walking on eggshells about that.D558 18:14, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Chillarmy?

"She was originally supposed to use Chillarmy as seen in original drawing of her."

Is there any proof of that? --Shining Latios 22:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Original artwork?

Is there a real change in Aloe's artwork? Her game sprite is same after all. It's loks like just an alternative version of same artwork.--Martianmister 14:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Which artwork goes where?

There seems to be some confusion about which artwork of Aloe should go in the main infobox, and which one should be put with the trivia as the "alternate". Can we get an official ruling on the two? --RiverAura 16:45, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

The artwork with the apron on was the original one. The one with it hung over her shoulder is the alternative one. --P S Y_ライダー☮ 16:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Miruhog's move/ability

The image name and description say that it is Flash, along with Flash's article, but here it is listed as Illuminate and has no moves known. Which is it? Illuminate's page does not mention it being used in the anime at all. --SnorlaxMonster 23:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Would guess it was Illuminate. Aloe did not issue a command. --ケンジのガール 01:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Again

I'll say it again. Is there a real change in Aloe's artwork? Her game sprite is same after all. It's looks like just an alternative version of same artwork.--Martianmister 14:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

The game sprite is from the Japanese game. We don't know what Aloe would look like in the english games because it's not out yet. It is technically not the same artwork, because the newer one has her apron over her shoulders. Same pose, different clothing position. --Han Ji-Wan 18:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Yorterri/Haderia

Pretty sure they are different pokemon. From what I could understand, Iris commented that Aloe was using a different Pokémon this time, and Dent stated it was most likely to catch rematchers off guard. Although it's not clearly stated, everything that is said by Iris, Aloe, and Ash suggest that Haderia is not the same as her Yorterri. Is there an official source that states they are in fact the same Pokémon? As the little evidence we have points to them being different Pokémon. Even if it's just 2 lines in the episode, it's more than guessing based on the fact they are part of the same evolutionary line. Myzou 18:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I went back and watched the episode again, since I am working on the summary, and from what I could tell, both Ash and Aloe kept calling it "this" Haderia, which, since I do not know Japanese, makes it sound like to me that it could be an entirely different Pokémon (as opposed to "that" Yorterri), but then again, I do not know anything about Japanese grammar. Iris said "No way, its evolved form? She'll be battling with different Pokémon from the last battle?" and then Dent said "She may have thought that it's a better way to bring out Satoshi's strength, given his progress" (according to whoever subbed the episode on Anime44.com, which is where I watch it). Now to me, Iris' line could go either way, sure it could mean that it is a different Pokémon entirely, or she could have just been shocked that it evolved. And to me, Dent's line doesn't give us any info either way. Can someone who can speak Japanese fluently (and has watched the episode) weigh in on this debate, to clarify the matter? One way or the other, it would be good to know. --JediKnightDTV 05:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I may be sounding arguementative but, Lillipup was her trump card in BW015, then she brings out its evolved from in BW016 as her trump card once again with the same attacks practily, I think the script writers may think we are smart enough to realise it evolved without them stating it, if these are seperate Pokémon then Paul has a Lairon and an Aggron, Nando has a Roselia and a Roserade, and Zoey has both Shellos and Gastrodon because it was never stated that they evolved. I could name more examples but for the sake of not sounding snooty, I won't Diamond Lanturn CodeName: 05308 15:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Kind of an unnecessary dispute but still, I'll ask Ume to confirm it when she's available, since she can speak Japanese fluently. Thank you ♫♪AdyNiz♪♫ 16:31, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Aha! Of course, Umeko can tell us all, with her word I will leave this to rest Diamond Lanturn CodeName: 05308 16:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify that I don't speak Japanese fluently; I still have a lot of work to do before I can consider myself fluent, especially when it comes to speaking and listening comprehension. ^^;

However, I'm pretty certain that Aloe's Yorterri and Haderia were two separate Pokemon. It wasn't stated outright, but the characters did seem to refer to the Haderia as if it were a totally different Pokemon, so I think it's safe to assume it as such. On the off-chance that the Haderia is revealed to be the same Pokemon when/if Aloe shows up again, we can make the changes then, but for now there is absolutely no reason to believe that they are the same Pokemon. 梅子^❄_❅ 19:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Renewing this issue because the english dub said clearly that she evolved Lillipup to challenge Ash. At least in the english dub it is definatly the same pokemon. --Pokemaster97 13:13, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

That's called a dub edit. At least that's all I consider it to be. It's not a major enough character for me to consider it anything more. ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ♥ 13:17, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I see this would probably be better to add to the dub edits section of the BW016 page. I'll do that I guess. --Pokemaster97 13:20, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Admittedly, I haven't seen either episode, but I see it as the dub confirming what we originally suspected, making something clear that wasn't in the original; I would consider it analogous to what M04 did for Sammy being Professor Oak, as stated in the commentary. Of course, having not seen the episode(s), I could be completely wrong, but I do see the dub a supplementary to the original. --SnorlaxMonster 16:21, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Dub lines "Hmm, Lillipup evolved? So Lenora's using a different Pokémon this battle." "Lenora must be trying to bring out Ash's strength. And the best way was to evolve Lillipup into Herdier." I think the dub simply clarifies what was left somewhat ambiguous in the original. Blazios 16:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

As I said before, I highly doubt this is just a dub edit as much as it is a clarification of something that was left ambiguous in the original version. If Lillipup and Herdier are split, then why aren't Sammy and Professor Oak, or May's Squirtle and May's Wartortle? Blazios 00:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Professor Oak and Wartortle they were VERY clear about. They even did a flashback of Wartortle as a Squirtle. The original only states Lenora is using a different Pokémon than before and nothing else. --ケンジのガール 00:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Can't we just protect this article for a while until this is all resolved? --Pokemaster97 00:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Lenora

http://bergsala.flashpublisher.se/flashpublisher/magazine/234 From the Norwegian Nintendo website... they use the English localization, so... official English names for characters and Pokémon... and here you go. Lenora. - Taylor 13:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Dialogue Added

Added the dialogue she says before, during and immediatly after the battle with her. Unfortunatly, I missed out the second block of dialogue that she says after you beat her, but before you fade to the world screen. Also, unintentially messed with the format, so if someone wants to sort that out, that wold be awesome. Jammi568 16:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Yamask

If you think about it, the Yamask in BW014 was befriended by Lenora. Do you think this is enough to put it under a 'befriended' section with Lenora's Pokemon? EvilKirikizan 00:12, 13 May 2011 (UTC) is awesome!

Not even close. --ケンジのガール 03:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Lenora's Watchog

Am I the only person who think's that Lenora's Watchog deserves it's own page. I mean, it appeared in all the episodes that she did, it exists in the games, it played a decent role in the anime and it even had it's anime ability confirmed. Watchermark 23:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

We have been over this before. And the answer is no. It did not do enough to warrant its own page. --ケンジのガール 23:37, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Archen

in BW039, it's said that Juniper received Archen's fossil from Lenora, so shoud'nt there be archen in Lenora's page, like "Gave away" or something similiar?- unsigned comment from Mchlmusso (talk • contribs)

Lenora's Lillipup

Lillipup's English voice has been not written. Does anyone know who it is? All I know is that there are only a few actors in the series that portray small Pokemon in their first forms. If anyone figures it out please discuss through here. Ctc1017 23:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)Ctc1017

The only voices I can find close to the voice are Kayzie Rogers, Michele Knotz, and Alyson Leigh Rosenfield. Other than that I have nobody else that can be close to the voice. If somebody does figure out the voice of Lillipup then discuss it here. Ctc1017 15:04, 15 July 2011 (UTC)Ctc1017

In the anime, Lenora's Herdier was shown as a Lillipup in Ash's first match against her before it evolved to Herdier in Ash's rematch with her. Can it be posted in trivia that Lenora's Lillipup in the anime could have referenced the Lillipup that Cilan/Chili/Cress use in the gym battle against them in the Black and White games since in the anime Cilan/Chili/Cress only used Pansage/Pansear/Panpour? --PKMNAdventurer 17:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I think Herdier deserves its own page because it evolved from Lillipup, this isn't speculation, it was explicitly said by Iris "That Herdier must've evolved from Lillipup!". OK, I admit it, it may've only been mentioned in the dub, but are you saying the dub lied? Chowolun 14:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC) User:Lucario985

Herdier didn't do anything. And it's not so much that they lied, it's just a slight script change. They did it all the time in the older episodes. This is nothing new. ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ♥ 14:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Like all of the other Pokémon that have evolved shouldn't Lillipup and Herdier have the same box bit Togekiss4ever (talk) 01:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

According to the article, that statement is true only in the dub, meaning in Japan, they are different Pokémon. --Abcboy (talk) 02:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Cheren replacing Lenora

In her article, should we have a segment about her being replaced in Black and White 2 by Cheren?--Pokemon26 04:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I would prefer we wait to find out exactly what the situation is. If the gym's in Nacrene or not (likely not considering Nacrene is covered in ice according to the map) and exactly why Lenora left, etc. ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ♥ 04:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Is this notable?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Lenora is the first, and so far only Leader to substitute her own Pokémon during a Gym battle with Ash; trivia-worthy, perhaps? ☆GamerGeek☆ 15:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Erika and Blaine recalled their Pokémon as well.--電禅Den Zen 15:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm...maybe we could say she's the first one since Blaine then, as those two were from over a whole decade ago (like how it's noted that Marlon is the first Gym Leader to be in only one episode since Chuck). Should that be good enough? ☆GamerGeek☆ 22:09, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

All signs point to her Herdier evolving from her Lillipup

It's mentioned in the dub, her Lillipup is nowhere to be seen in that episode, they use the same moves...Plus, we assumed that May's Venusaur evolved from Bulbasaur due to the same reasons (minus the dub mention), right? So can't we assume the same for Lenora? Technickal (talk) 15:50, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

You're right. We also assume that Paul's Aggron and the Lairon he used against Brandon are the same Pokémon without anything directly confirming it, so what's the difference here? - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talk • contribs) 00:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I've wondered before why it lists them separately too. There's literally nothing I am aware of that would indicate them being anything but the same Pokémon that evolved. Litwick96 (talk) 00:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

First, MM, please remember that you need two colons to indent, Second, In the Japanese version of said episode, Lilipup and Herdier are seperate entities. Aggron was confirmed in the Japaese version to be Lairon, so this theory is both speculation and false.--BlisseyandtheAquaJets (talk) 02:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)