Talk:Genesis Supernova (move)

Mew Transformed

Much as most Pokémon cannot Mega Evolve after transforming, even if they do hold on to the corresponding Mega Stone, Mew should not be able to use Genesis Supernova even if it has transformed into a Pokémon that knows Psychic. Bulldogs1234869 (talk) 17:53, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Can you prove that? "should not" has no bearing on whether it actually is or isn't able to, and until more details are known, it should be kept as it is. Xolroc (talk) 18:13, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

This would have to be tested by someone who has hacked the stone into the game. CycloneGU (talk) 18:14, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Can confirm, Z-move is not useable while transformed. 'Z-power' comes up, but states 'There is no useable move'.Diremongoose (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

"Has Mewnium-Z"

Does the game actually require the trainer to possess a Z-crystal in order to use a Z-move if the Pokémon is holding the Z-crystal hold item? Given that it is (barring possible undiscovered glitches or hacking) impossible to obtain a Pokémon holding a Z-crystal without owning the corresponding Z-crystal bag item, I see no reason that requirement should be mentioned, even if it is in the code. (note that held Z-crystals are removed automatically if you trade Pokémon) Xolroc (talk) 18:19, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Keep in mind a Pokémon can be traded to you holding the Z-Crystal, which you as the trainer cannot use. I have not tried, but I imagine in my Sun game I would not have the ability to use any of my Z-Crystals yet as I don't have the trials done in that game. CycloneGU (talk) 18:21, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

As I mentioned at the end of that, trading Pokémon automatically removes Z-crystals from them. I am almost certain this is the case, but it is just what I remember from a few weeks ago so I could be wrong on that point. Xolroc (talk) 18:23, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

I might have to try this, then, between Sun and Moon. Except I am using them on the same system, so there is that. CycloneGU (talk) 18:25, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

By the logic that the game doesn't allow it, you could also argue that we don't need to mention the Z-Ring either. You're not getting any Z-Crystals before getting the Z-Ring (in legitimate play). Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:26, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

If you'd like, CycloneGU, I can. I'll try to contact said friend, execute a trade, and see what happens. I'm not sure if there are any Z-crystals that one of us has and the other doesn't, though.

Tiddlywinks: You make a good point. Though, to give a counterargument, the game does explicitly state that the Z-ring is a requirement for using Z-moves, while it never (to my knowledge) says anything about the trainer having a Z-crystal as opposed to the Pokémon holding one. Xolroc (talk) 18:31, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the game either. But I know that prerelease material talked about the Trainer needing the Z-Crystal too. I'm not sure what the line is for what the learnset should/shouldn't say, but I don't think we should settle for the easy answer by mistake. Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:35, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough; the page works fine as it is, so leaving it is fine. Even so, checking if the game actually requires it is worthwhile research, I think. Could put the results on BP:SPADING if nowhere else. Xolroc (talk) 18:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Our Z-Crystal article says they will be removed, and I'm inclined to trust that. In-game trades with crystals are at locations you can only access after obtaining the Bag item in-game (if checked that some time ago, actually). If our wordings makes no difference, we can easily still include the lore, I think. But for the Z-Ring requirement, you could evolve your Munchlax (or trade another Snorlax) early and try to use Pulverizing Pancake. Nescientist (talk) 18:39, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

So, basically, to test this we need to get to an in-game trade with a Z crystal by bypassing the trial to get the Z crystal, or hack a Pokemon holding a Z crystal into the game before we obtain it. Either way, they're not really legitimate ways to test this... ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 20:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

I have a Sun game with a Z-Ring but I have not advanced past the first Pokémon Center yet. I could try to trade a Z-Crystal holding Pokémon into there to see what happens. CycloneGU (talk) 21:21, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure it's not possible to trade Z crystals, meaning cheating is the only way to test it. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 22:55, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

I wanted to test this. I found this from Gamefaqs forums:

"If you trade a Pokemon 'holding' a Z Crystal, all you're really doing is trading them with the flag that they're 'holding' that specific Z Crystal. If the guy you traded it to has that crystal already, it appears as though you traded it - but if he doesn't have it yet, then the Z Crystal 'disappears' (since he can't have a Pokemon linked to a Z Crystal he doesn't have in his inventory)."

By this information, the Z-Crystal cannot be traded at all, and doesn't appear as a regular item as it has its own pocket. Therefore, there might be cause to treat both the Trainer and Pokémon's Z-Crystals as a single entity. This might be something to discuss between ourselves. CycloneGU (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

(resetting indent) I tested this myself, and that Gamefaq information is incorrect (at least for Plaza trades, which is what I've tested); when you trade Pokémon with held crystals, they will lose their crystals when traded (you'll get a warning it will be removed before locking the Pokémon in, then see it in either side's confirmation screen regardless, but it is not there after the trade). That's independent of whether you have the corresponding Bag item (I tried to trade a held Waterium, and the Bag item was present in both games). Our page is correct (and I can also confirm that you do get held crystals at in-game trades).

For the potential method on testing the Z-Ring requirement I mentioned earlier: I think you don't have access to a Pokémon Center before you'll receive the Z-Ring, so you cannot receive a Bag Snorlium before (which means you cannot test whether you do need a Z-Ring). (But you can still get a Snorlium before a Normalium, so Pulverizing Pancake is really the first Z-Move you'd have access to.) Nescientist (talk) 10:31, 14 January 2017 (UTC)