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Talk:Shiny Pokémon: Difference between revisions
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Can someone please unlock this page? You're now two shiny images behind on Generation VII. Need pictures from both SM/USUM and LGPE. SM/USUM one can be an Alolan Sandshrew. --[[User:Macsen|Macsen]] ([[User talk:Macsen|talk]]) 09:22, 21 November 2018 (UTC) | Can someone please unlock this page? You're now two shiny images behind on Generation VII. Need pictures from both SM/USUM and LGPE. SM/USUM one can be an Alolan Sandshrew. --[[User:Macsen|Macsen]] ([[User talk:Macsen|talk]]) 09:22, 21 November 2018 (UTC) | ||
:As far as I can tell, the page is not locked... You might need to be autoconfirmed to edit certain pages, but I'm not really sure. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 14:51, 21 November 2018 (UTC) | :As far as I can tell, the page is not locked... You might need to be autoconfirmed to edit certain pages, but I'm not really sure. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 14:51, 21 November 2018 (UTC) | ||
== Unavailable Shiny list - sub sections for gen 7 to show LGPE and SMUSUM? == | |||
Should we separate the lists under gen 7 to have a section for SMUSUM and LGPE. Before splitting it by generation made sense because of the inter-compatibility - but LGPE has thrown that out of the window. currently only Mew is affected but it looks a bit awkward [[User:Jmvb|JMVB - literally it doesn't stand for anything]] ([[User talk:Jmvb|talk]]) 07:49, 15 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Shiny in biology section == | |||
Here's a question about Shiny Pokemon: Is it a good idea to describe their Shiny colors on their pages? --[[User:Dogleader|Dogleader]] ([[User talk:Dogleader|talk]]) 23:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC) | |||
== masuda method forced shinies? == | |||
I think I saw a video once that said if you use the masuda method and count the number of eggs before you get shiny, soft reset and breed the same number of eggs with a pokemon of your choice it will be shiny. He called it shiny swapping (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nc3BsqkdYY. Has this been checked? If not I can. {{unsigned|Bob-jo3}} | |||
:It's probably worth mentioning somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I'm by no means an expert but this seems like more of a side effect of the RNG algorithm than a formal "method" for shiny hunting. There's more information [[Pseudorandom number generation#RNG abuse|here]] if you're curious. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#00A1E9">cela</span><span style="color:#BF004F">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 17:24, 8 January 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Pokédex NPCs in Isle of Armor == | |||
Wandering through Isle of Armor there are some NPCs that offer to you the chance to see a Pokémon present in the area that you've never encountered before for 100 Watts. Agreeing with the service, you'll see a Pokédex page with a random Pokémon that you miss as seen and these Pokémon have the chance to be shiny, as demonstrated [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmeNOpYI8s here]. I don't know how these NPCs are called and I haven't find record on the wiki, but this could definitely be added to the "Non-playable character's Shiny Pokémon" section.{{unsigned|Croma}} | |||
== Virtual Console Shinies in SWSH == | |||
Virtual Console Shinies are also guaranteed to be square Shinies, but the article only mentions fateful encounters and Pokémon GO. [[User:Icycatelf|Icycatelf]] ([[User talk:Icycatelf|talk]]) 16:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:This is because Virtual Console shinies are not guaranteed to be Square, just very very likely, with 65521/65536 being Square, and only 15/65536 being Star. Several encounter types are highly weighted towards being Star or Square depending on generation method and RNG. There is a list [https://lincoln-lm.github.io/JS-Finder/Tools/SquareTable.html here] for reference. [[User:Atrius97|Atrius97]] ([[User talk:Atrius97|talk]]) 23:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Ah. I was always under the impression that they were. I appreciate the info and the link! [[User:Icycatelf|Icycatelf]] ([[User talk:Icycatelf|talk]]) 23:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Proposed edit == | |||
In the "in the anime" section, I think there are two problem statements; | |||
* Regarding Pink Butterfree, it states: "This is, however, not the standard alternate coloration for a Butterfree, '''and therefore may not be counted as a Shiny Pokémon'''." | |||
* '''The first true Shiny Pokémon''' that appeared was a Noctowl in Fowl Play!. | |||
According to whom? There is currently a prevailing view in the fandom that "if an alternately colored Pokémon doesn't match the color of the mainline games' shiny sprite or 3D model, it 'doesn't count'" or is wrong. However, no official source has ever stated as such. While the fandom term "Shiny" became canon starting with Generation 5's English games ''(over-ruling Gen 3's "Alt. Color" in English FRLG)'', it didn't necessarily canonize the way some fans understood the term shiny. This would suggest that the Mewtwo [[Shining Mewtwo (Neo Destiny 109)]] "isn't shiny", or that some of the alt. color Pokémon in the 3D N64 and Game Cube games "aren't shiny". This applies a fan inference of something which no official source has ever stated as fact, and applies that fan understanding (or misunderstanding) of mainline game logic to other sections of the franchise, all of which seem to approach this situation in their own way. I think the best approach would be to take a sort of 'agnostic' compromise on the matter; | |||
* Since no official source has ever stated Pink Butterfree "may not be counted as a Shiny Pokémon," omitting that phrase and leaving the acknowledgement that it is nonetheless "alternately colored" is a compromise. | |||
* It'd then follow that rather than a fandom determination of what counts as a "true Shiny Pokémon", The statement regarding Noctowl should be rephrased to say it's the first alternate colored Pokémon to match the coloration and behavior (re: sparkles on coming out of the Poké Ball) of mainline game appearances of Shiny Pokémon. | |||
The opening of this article is very strong – the Terminology section shows a good understanding of the weird circumstances by which the term 'shiny' went from fandom to official but doesn't perfectly align with the Japanese terminology and understanding of いろちがい, but this section in particular seems like a mix of switching back and forth between the phrase "alternately colored" and "shiny" and then passing judgement on what does and doesn't count as shiny, based on a fandom definition. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 01:37, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
:From conversation with a few people in the Discord (which was unproductive on both ends), there seems to be a fair amount of confusion regarding what I've stated here. I'd encourage folks to check out the older comments on this Talk page – [[Talk:Shiny Pokémon/Archive 1|i.e. those in the archive]] – because it more clearly outlines what kind of happened here and why you might be confused. In March of 2007, stated that; | |||
:''"If it's not a normally-coloured Pokémon it must, logically, be an alternately-coloured Pokémon. It doesn't matter if it doesn't match the precise alternate colouration of the games."'' | |||
:which I'm asserting is correct.. In response, another user said that; | |||
:''"Technically, yes; "alternately colored" means, technically, it's simply a different color. "Shiny" is a different story, however."'' | |||
:In 2007, "shiny" wasn't an official term yet – it wasn't really canonized until some time in late 2009, if memory serves. So we see that *Shiny* as a term was being approached as a fandom term, with its own definition, that differed from the official franchise understanding of being "alternately colored". Where things got murky was when promotional materials introduced the term, and eventually the mainline games themselves changed from "Alt. Color" to "Shiny Pokémon." At the time, I remember being parts of conversations where we all understood it would get confusing because people might mistakenly assume that by making the fan term official, it'd be making the fan definition, official, too. And, I think confusion that we were anticipating might end up happening about seems to have ended up becoming the case. But believe it or not, nothing's actually changed in how the franchise does, or rather, doesn't clearly define what "counts" as a Shiny Pokémon. So ''"Technically, yes; "alternately colored" means, technically, it's simply a different color. "Shiny" is a different story, however."'' is as true today as it was in 2007, but because "Shiny" has gotten confused, I know most people will have a hard time following the argument unless they dedicate themselves to reading the entire talk page history, looking up in game mentions of these terms (and more importantly, looking up and noting *lack* of mention, and *lack* of commitment to clearly defining these terms) to understand how things got here. I will firmly reject any claims, like what I met in the Discord, that what I am arguing is "bad faith". I am doing my best to clearly outline what the situation is, and it should be noted I'm leading with a proposed edit that I believe is a ''compromise''. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 02:55, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::The comment regarding Pink Butterfree is correct as the episode it debuted in was prior to Shiny / Rare / Shining Pokémon being introduced properly as a concept in Generation II games and TCG sets. The English versions of Gold / Silver / Crystal also have a trainer at Lake of Rage make a reference to a Pink Butterfree. The shiny Butterfree in the game has similar colors but is not the same coloration and was introduced long after the episode that Pink Butterfree debuted in. Pink Butterfree is... well, pink; whereas in all official sprites and models for Butterfree starting from Generation II have them as some shade of purple with lavender color wings. | |||
::Ash's Noctowl is the first properly introduced Shiny Pokémon in the franchise as the episode debuted after Generation II games released. | |||
::While no official word is given as far as I know, Alternate color was seemingly a catch-all term in Generation III as in Generation II, the terms Shining and Rare (used within internal game data) were used when the devs were trying to figure out a term to make different colored Pokémon standout as unique and different. Alternate color works more with the special one-off non-Shiny Pokémon in the anime as those are usually from very unique circumstances or items that may have altered what their colors were supposed to. In side-games, spin-offs, and crossover games, several Pokémon have alternate color schemes and tend to be noted as such in those games as non-Shiny (although Shiny colors may be pallets that get used.) The earliest used instance of "Shiny" was during Generation IV for an event before it became official in Generation V games. ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 04:47, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I don't follow on what basis the Pink Butterfree comment is correct, unless it's because you're still using the fandom definition of Shiny Pokémon, rather than the official definition of Shiny Pokémon, which has never clearly stated that any Pokémon "doesn't count" as shiny. Well, it has more or less already clearly delineated the difference between a "regular color Pokémon" and a "Shiny Pokémon", but it has never ruled on the idea of an alternate Pokémon with a third, unique color scheme, "not counting" as Shiny. I think if you were to suggest that the games are implicitly ''suggesting'' as such, I might even agree with you, but the approach of this project doesn't appear to be to take suggestions and run with it – Pokémon Legends Arceus is implicitly ''suggesting'' several characters are related to characters in other games, but the general approach has been to say that "the relationship between the [characters], if any, is unknown." | |||
:::I would argue that instances like the TCG's Shining Mewtwo, Mudkip Star, Creatures' models for Pokémon Stadiums, Colosseum, XD, etc. actually ''do'' point towards an answer about whether these "third, unique color scheme" Pokémon count as shinies (the answer being yes), and while you might ''choose'' to point to Pink Butterfree at Lake of Rage as a "reference", I'd ''choose'' to interpret it otherwise. We don't know which answer is correct. The games have never directly commented on it. | |||
:::If you're going to insist on applying a fandom definition of "Shiny" here, I'd suggest the opening of the article be revised to more explicitly concede the murky history of the term, and on top of that I'd suggest following up on one of the conversations in the Archived talk pages – I am opposed to the redirect of this page from 'Alternate colored Pokémon'. To quote a 2009 post, "Shiny is only focusing on shiny Pokemon. Alternate coloration can imply any other colors of Pokemon such as Pink Butterfree." (i.e., Shiny Pokémon as a page for the fandom sense of the term, and Alternate color Pokémon for the official sense of the term.) --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 06:46, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Alternate color may be the official sense of the Japanese term, but we're an English wiki. It's true, there's no official definition of "Shiny" as far as I know. (Though if Frozen Fennec says some side games distinguish differently colored Pokemon that don't match game colorations, that's worth hearing in more detail.) But it doesn't necessarily matter if there's no given definition; it's not hard to see a reasonable definition just by the evidence of our own eyes. It's like the intro says currently: they're Pokemon that are not their normal color. | |||
::::Now, I also think that specifying the games' standard as the rule for "Shiny" Pokemon is fine, again because of abundant evidence: if "Shiny" is always used for Pokemon from the games, it is reasonable to consider other Pokemon to be something slightly different. I will agree that there's no evidence that there not "Shiny", but there's also no evidence that they are. | |||
::::As a wiki, following official terms is not our sole purpose. If the broad fandom has decided that it's easier to call Pokemon with non-standard colors "alternately colored", then it's perfectly valid for BP to document that as well. | |||
::::I feel like I'm starting to lose the thread now...but those are my thoughts in response to what has been brought up. I'll wait for a response and try to respond better then. ;^^ [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 16:21, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::https://pokemongolive.com/en/post/valentines-day-event-2023-luvdisc-research-day/ | |||
::::::The term "Shiny" is officially used by the developers of Pokémon Go, and in ''[[JN014|Raid Battle in The Ruins!]]'', the character Shane Seeker showed only the official variations of Shinys from the games when he showed the pokedex. That is, they are aware of the term and color variations. | |||
::::::The anime itself makes it clear when the Pokémon is Shiny or not, that is, Ash's Gengar is not Shiny.--[[User:Hikaru Wazana|Hikaru Wazana]] ([[User talk:Hikaru Wazana|talk]]) 16:31, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Hi Hikaru. Same question for you as above, since you are deliberately talking past what I outlined above. Why are confusing the fan definition of shiny with the official definition? Is it deliberate? Or do you really not understand what I outlined? | |||
:::::::To Tiddlywinks; "If the broad fandom has decided...." Can you more clearly outline what the official policy of this wiki is? I have historically defended Bulbapedia on other fansites and one of the argument which often came up was that many of the project's users insist on trying to make certain fandom terms official, or else try very hard to blur those lines. I felt strongly that when the site abandoned its massive shipping agenda, it was a step in the right direction, and often pointed to it as evidence to the contrary. However, I'm finally ready to give up on defending this site, and want to be able to point to this talk page as an example of how this project still tries to pass off head-canon as formal. Can you please clarify the idea that this site treats fandom as binding, if a 'broad' (majority?) has agreed on it? I don't want to be accused of misreading, or putting words in anyone's mouth, so it'd be best to have you more clearly outline the idea here. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 16:37, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::For the benefit of someone like Hikaru, who maybe is a bit... I'll copy-paste what I wrote on another talk page; | |||
::::::'''Alt. Color Pokémon (official definition, prior to 2009):''' Any alternatively colored Pokémon. | |||
::::::'''Shiny Pokémon (fandom definition, prior to 2009):''' Any alternatively colored Pokémon, but only of a particular coloration that matches the mainline video games. | |||
::::::In 2009, official use of Alt. Color Pokémon was retired in favor of Shiny Pokémon. But doing this does not mean your asinine definition of what does or doesn't count as meeting that criteria changed; | |||
::::::'''Shiny Pokémon (official definition, 2009-onward):''' Any alternatively colored Pokémon. | |||
::::::'''Shiny Pokémon (fandom definition, 2009-onward):''' Any alternatively colored Pokémon, but only of a particular coloration that matches the mainline video games. | |||
::::::You are conflating the official and fan definition of "Shiny Pokémon". There is no evidence to support what you're claiming. When Pokémon Go says that, for example, "here is Shiny Furfrou." '''it does not say''' "here is shiny Furfrou, ''and all the other Shiny Furfrou are wrong and don't count.''" You're adding that. The burden of proof is on you. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 16:41, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Ash's Gengar has never let out the Shiny sparkles that other Shiny Pokémon like Ash's Noctowl, Lance's Gyarados, and Steven's Metagross have demonstrated before in the anime. In addition, its Gigantamax form has its regular colors. --[[User:FinnishPokéFan92|FinnishPokéFan92]] ([[User talk:FinnishPokéFan92|talk]]) 16:46, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::OK, and? That doesn't address any of what I've just said. You're still using the fandom definition of the term, which says a Shiny Pokémon has to be this, do this, etc. or it "doesn't count". There's no official source that's ever agreed with the fandom definition of the term in this way. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 16:48, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::The entire basis of your argument boils down to the {{wp|Russell's Teapot}} and {{wp|Argument from ignorance}} logical fallacies. The burden of proof for someone making empirically unfalsifiable claims falls on the one making those claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others, and a proposition is not inherently true because it has not yet been proven false. Even when attempting to shift the burden of proof onto everyone else, you refuse to accept ample evidence to the contrary. The other users across the various talk pages and Discord provided ample examples of the official usage of terminology and definitions of Shiny Pokemon, your refusal to accept them does not make them invalid. [[User:Atrius97|Atrius97]] ([[User talk:Atrius97|talk]]) 17:04, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Not really. But your argument does boil down to {{wp|Wikipedia:cherrypicking}}. (I can be just as snarky as you :) ) --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 17:09, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Basically, you are reading into the official use of the term what doesn't exist, and your self-assured examples last night proved this. "PLA says a Shiny Ponyta is blue" does not say, for example, "PLA says a green Ponyta is not Shiny." Likewise, while an official source will say "Shiny Butterfree is purple with green eyes," you cannot read into it that it says "A pink Butterfree is not Shiny." These are things we go through in elementary school. ''(e.g. "All people named Sally are girls," does not mean "all girls are named Sally.")'' You can cite all these fallacies and this and that and the other that you want, but it's not going to change the fact that you're failing at a basic logic problem. The fandom definition of "Shiny" is unnecessarily more stringent than the official definition of "Shiny", which has never said what you are claiming it says. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 17:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::Going by the English games (because we are an English wiki), the only thing you can say about Shinies is that all Pokemon called Shiny have matched the <s>have</s> game colorations. Can you show me where a Pokemon of different colors was called Shiny? | |||
:::::It's all well and good to say that they never said Shinies ''can't'' have other colors, or that Japanese or other terms are broader. But as far as ''English'' goes, you need to show a concrete example that "Shiny" is intended to be broader. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 18:27, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::Then you're necessarily stating the "2009-on official definition of Shiny Pokémon" I've provided is wrong, and that means that official term "Alt. Color Pokémon" was never retconned. Therefore, "Alt. Color Pokémon" needs to be its own article and this page needs to be significantly rewritten to undo an impression of equivalency between the terms. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 18:42, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::I see the Discord server is falsely characterizing my edits to some other pages as 'vandalism'. Doesn't it appear like it? It's because it's your stupid comprehension being put into practice - if you're going to claim that Shiny Pokémon now have to be a particular color or they "don't count", the Shining Mewtwo card isn't a Shiny Mewtwo. Mudkip Star isn't a shiny Mudkip. You cannot have it both ways, and it's bad faith to suggest edits to implement your stupid logic into practice are vandalism. If you don't like the result of your logic, stop insisting upon it. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 19:38, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Proposed split and redirect == | |||
In the event a consensus is reached that I am incorrect in the above conversation, so that "Shiny Pokémon" is understood to be, for example, "a Pink Butterfree is not shiny," then this means that the article rename in 2009 was incorrect, because at that time the community incorrectly assumed that '''Shiny Pokémon''' as a term retconned/replaced the term '''Alt. Color Pokémon'''. Since you are all now arguing that these are mutually exclusive terms, then that means the term Alt. Color Pokémon was never retconned. I therefore proposed that it would deserve its own page on this wiki, and this article should be rewritten to accomodate for this. --[[User:INTERNETFRIEND|INTERNETFRIEND]] ([[User talk:INTERNETFRIEND|talk]]) 17:43, 13 April 2023 (UTC) | |||