1,953
edits
Talk:Phione (Pokémon): Difference between revisions
→Mythical dispute, continued: new section
Tiddlywinks (talk | contribs) |
Celadonkey (talk | contribs) (→Mythical dispute, continued: new section) |
||
| (24 intermediate revisions by 11 users not shown) | |||
| Line 336: | Line 336: | ||
:Phione not being Mythical is the exact same reason why Deoxys isn't; it's obtainable perfectly fine in regular gameplay so long as you have Manaphy/Phione or Ditto. That, and also the fact that Phione was never directly given away from events; the closest you got to that was an event distribution for Manaphy which, again, just breed with Ditto and you'll get your Phione. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] ([[User talk:Shiramu Kuromu|talk]]) 13:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC) | :Phione not being Mythical is the exact same reason why Deoxys isn't; it's obtainable perfectly fine in regular gameplay so long as you have Manaphy/Phione or Ditto. That, and also the fact that Phione was never directly given away from events; the closest you got to that was an event distribution for Manaphy which, again, just breed with Ditto and you'll get your Phione. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] ([[User talk:Shiramu Kuromu|talk]]) 13:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC) | ||
::Deoxys is actually explicitly stated to be Mythical in ORAS. "Obtainable in-game" can only be considered a guide now, not a rule. I.e., so far, all Pokemon not obtainable directly in a game are Mythical; but a Pokemon that ''is'' obtainable in-game is not necessarily ''not'' Mythical. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 14:33, 13 November 2015 (UTC) | ::Deoxys is actually explicitly stated to be Mythical in ORAS. "Obtainable in-game" can only be considered a guide now, not a rule. I.e., so far, all Pokemon not obtainable directly in a game are Mythical; but a Pokemon that ''is'' obtainable in-game is not necessarily ''not'' Mythical. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 14:33, 13 November 2015 (UTC) | ||
:::According to the Pokémon 2011 Style Guide aka the Pokémon Product Approval Manual, Phione is Mythical, being listed under the Mythical Pokémon section along with its parent Manaphy, Celebi, Jirachi and a few others. But I feel like this should be a no-brainer at this point, if SnorlaxMonster says it is known that Phione is not Legendary - while it clearly is a "legend" as it was one of the Pokémon allowed in the Circle of Legends tournament - then there's only one option remaining guys. --[[User:Mikuri|<span style="color:#2b915e;">'''Mi'''</span>]][[User talk: Mikuri|<span style="color:#52cc91;">'''ku'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Mikuri|<span style="color:#8debbc;">'''ri'''</span>]] 16:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC) | |||
== Legendary Status == | == Legendary Status == | ||
| Line 343: | Line 344: | ||
:In the TPC survey, Phione is not mentioned in the list of Mythical Pokémon. [[User:Shepeedy|Shepeedy]] ([[User talk:Shepeedy|talk]]) 20:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC) | :In the TPC survey, Phione is not mentioned in the list of Mythical Pokémon. [[User:Shepeedy|Shepeedy]] ([[User talk:Shepeedy|talk]]) 20:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC) | ||
::That's circumstantial - it doesn't make a valid argument that Phione isn't Mythical. Of course, between that and the fact that it's needed for X/Y's diploma, there's a strong argument that it isn't Mythical anymore. However, that's not my point. I'm not trying to say that Phione is specifically one or the other; rather, I'm saying that there's now first-party non-circumstantial evidence that it enjoys one of the two designations. [[User:Seafarer|Seafarer]] ([[User talk:Seafarer|talk]]) 20:38, 15 July 2015 (UTC) | ::That's circumstantial - it doesn't make a valid argument that Phione isn't Mythical. Of course, between that and the fact that it's needed for X/Y's diploma, there's a strong argument that it isn't Mythical anymore. However, that's not my point. I'm not trying to say that Phione is specifically one or the other; rather, I'm saying that there's now first-party non-circumstantial evidence that it enjoys one of the two designations. [[User:Seafarer|Seafarer]] ([[User talk:Seafarer|talk]]) 20:38, 15 July 2015 (UTC) | ||
== Change to Mythical == | |||
I took the initiative to change the "Legendary status" section to have the heading "Mythical status", as the sentence directly below it mentions that its status as a mythical Pokémon, not a legendary one, is disputed. | |||
If anyone has an issue with this change, please mention it. {{unsigned|Pacack}} | |||
== Mythical Status (again) == | |||
Apologies if this is beating a dead horse, but I'm curious as to if there's any reason why we still give serious weight to the arguments against Phione being a Mythical Pokemon. The amount of evidence for it being Mythical at this point far exceed the few points against it, each of which are all from very old Generation IV material and, as noted by Seafarer above, are very weak (with one even being an assumption rather than actual evidence). Additionally, some of the points in favor (like the Circle of Legends one) are very strong, and are as close to an official confirmation in a core series game or its closely related official material that we're likely to get anytime soon. | |||
Also, there's a mention of that survey that apparently excluded Phione above, but given its timing, exclusion of Deoxys, and the implications of what it was asking, it seems very likely that the survey was gauging the level of interest in each Mythical that would be distributed in the 20th Anniversary giveaways, with the more popular ones being given via store codes. As we know, Phione not being distributed in this way has nothing to do with being Mythical or not, and more to do with availability (hence no Deoxys, Diancie, etc.). | |||
I think we should change how we consider Phione, such that it's included as a Mythical everywhere without strings attached (like [http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Diploma&diff=0&oldid=2476583| here], for example). It's still worth mentioning the dispute here and maybe on the Mythical page as a historical thing, but I think the language should be shifted more towards it being something that existed in the past, instead of giving the impression of it being an ongoing dispute. What are staff members' opinions on this? [[User:VioletPumpkin|VioletPumpkin]] ([[User talk:VioletPumpkin|talk]]) 02:41, 13 August 2016 (UTC) | |||
:I completely agree with this, in every article on the global link Phione is mentioned as a mythical pokemon, it's always banned alongside any other mythical pokemon in official cups and vgc metagames and is no longer required for completing the national dex. The trivia section has 8 arguments for phione being a mythical and 3 against, two of which date all the way back to gen 4. Any moderators who still think phione is a disputed mythical should stop being stubborn and start living in the current gen where it's been made clear over and over that phione is a mythical pokemon. [[User:Mijzelffan|Mijzelffan]] ([[User talk:Mijzelffan|talk]]) 21:31, 20 August 2016 (UTC) | |||
::I agree. And I just removed one of the arguments against its Mythical status (the HGSS guide says it's not Legendary, which is not part of the dispute in the modern/HGSS meaning of "Legendary/伝説のポケモン" that does not encompass Mythical Pokémon). There are five waterproof arguments for it being Mythical, and the only non-assumption one for it ''not'' being Mythical is the revoked pokemon.com answer (the dead link). And btw, the TPC survey from the section above has meanwhile been [[Special:Diff/2353910|removed]] for a good reason. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 15:17, 20 September 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::I don't disagree that Phione is clearly a Mythical Pokémon by now, but removing the HGSS guide was improper of you. The Legendary/Mythical split was not localized into English until Generation V (as is clearly stated in the first paragraph of our [[Mythical Pokémon]] article), so at the time of HGSS the dispute would have been whether Phione is Legendary, and the guidebook stands as (weak, old, but still slightly valid) evidence. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 17:24, 20 September 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, I apologize. (I somehow thought HGSS was Gen V.) Everything else still holds true. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 17:26, 20 September 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::Yeah, at this point it looks like it's Mythical in every way that matters. In all circumstances that being Mythical has some substantive effect, Phione is treated the same way. We have Nintendo and the Circle of Legends tournament explicitly calling it Mythical, whereas we only have a Prima guide (unreliable) and a Ranger game against it (although I would be interested to see what Guardian Signs says in Japanese). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 15:12, 8 October 2016 (UTC) | |||
=="Phione can breed to produce another Phione; this is impossible with any other Legendary and Mythical Pokémon."== | |||
Hate to say it but we kind of have no choice in the matter now; the second Cosmog you get in Sun and Moon is the offspring of your own Version Mascot and the opposite it had summoned to produce it, yet alone the fact both Solgaleo and Lunala are the final forms of a split three stage evolution line as well... [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] ([[User talk:Shiramu Kuromu|talk]]) 21:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
:The Cosmog evolutionary line cannot breed, so there is no issue here. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 03:37, 4 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
::Then you've clearly not played Sun and Moon and got to the Lake of the Moone/Sunne yet. [[User:Shiramu Kuromu|Shiramu Kuromu]] ([[User talk:Shiramu Kuromu|talk]]) 12:09, 4 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::It cannot produce Eggs in the Day Care/Nursery, which is the context in which "breeding" is used. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 12:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
== Bank Pokedex (more confusion) == | |||
Bank has given us evidence against. All confirmed mythical pokemon, and nearly all [[Special Pokémon]] (except Mewtwo), have a shiny/reflective background on their pokedex picture entry, but Phione doesn't. [[User:Jmvb|JMVB - literally it doesn't stand for anything]] ([[User talk:Jmvb|talk]]) 15:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Book == | |||
Official guide to legendary and mythical Pokemon states that phone is a mythical Pokemon.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 00:27, 27 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
Official adventure guide Ashs quest from kanto to kalos says same thing. | |||
== Is it really still disputed? == | |||
Let's look at the evidence against: | |||
It can breed to produce eggs - a similar logic can be applied to the cosmog line to claim they are not legendaries because they can evolve, but we know they are legendaries and this is simply an exception. Phione could be an exception to the rule that says mythical can't breed to produce themselves, so I don't think this is good evidence | |||
The HGSS guide - this was 7 years ago, and subsequent similar guides have stated it is mythical | |||
Pokemon Ranger - again this game is nearly 7 years old, and subsequent similar side games like Mystery Dungeon have stated that it's mythical. besides this only proves that it's not part of a grouping of pokemon known as in the game as "rare". While this "rare" grouping has overlap with mythical, that doesn't necessarily mean rare = mythical. even if rare=mythical - this game is now 7 years old. | |||
the mailbag - not only is this offline, but the most recent answer was a yes, indicating that the initial answer may have been a mistake. | |||
There are many more sources claiming it is mythical, and crucially these are all more recent than the sources claiming it isn't. the only official sources that stated 100% it isn't mythical (the mailbag and hgss guide), have subsequently been contradicted by similar official sources. ie the mailbag was updated, and there have been similar guides since the HGSS one claiming that it is mythical | |||
maybe we should just call a mythical pokemon, with a note somewhere saying that some older sources stated it wasn't, or that it's mythical status wasn't always clear [[User:Jmvb|JMVB - literally it doesn't stand for anything]] ([[User talk:Jmvb|talk]]) 11:58, 27 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
:This was discussed [[Talk:Phione (Pokémon)#Mythical Status (again)|a few sections ago]] and the consensus seemed to be agreement, including staff member SnorlaxMonster, but nothing has been done about it yet. I think perhaps the Editorial Board should be prodded to consider the change more hastily. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 15:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Mythical dispute, continued == | |||
This topic has been beaten into the ground but I think I should add my input. | |||
I recently added to the Mythical status section with information from the USUM guide book. It states, "As a basic rule, Legendary and Mythical Pokémon can’t find Eggs. However, there is just one exception to this rule: the Mythical Pokémon Manaphy", implying that Phione isn't Mythical or Legendary, because the only breeding Legendary or Mythical is Manaphy. | |||
However, interestingly, it contradicts itself in its own book... "Some Pokémon can’t be traded using the GTS or Wonder Trade— specifically, Mythical Pokémon brought from past games with Poké Transporter: Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Phione, Manaphy, Shaymin, Arceus, Victini, Keldeo, Meloetta, and Genesect." Here, Phione is explicitly listed as being Mythical. | |||
Now, when I brought this up to the bulbapedia discord, SnorlaxMonster said, "I think this is just an oversight where they forgot that Phione can breed to produce Phione. Phione is as good as confirmed to be Mythical." | |||
I think we should have some other mods' inputs on this --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 16:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC) | |||