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Talk:Base stats: Difference between revisions
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:::Thoughts on this? It's just a quick mockup, but also sort of a compromise proposal between both sides. --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 00:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | :::Thoughts on this? It's just a quick mockup, but also sort of a compromise proposal between both sides. --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 00:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::As SnorlaxMonster stated on the Effort values discussion, the official guide explicitly states that a Pokémon's stats are composed of "The strengths of its species"(what we once called base stats), "The strengths of the individual"(what Masuda seemed to call innate abilities in the tweet he made about the Destiny Knot, but what we tend to call IVs), and "Its base stats for each stat". Nothing there or in the games implies that the term "base stats" refers to anything other than what the fandom traditionally called EVs.- [[User:Blazios|<span style="color:navy">Blazios</span>]] [[User Talk:Blazios|<span style="color:limegreen"><sub>talk</sub></span>]] 09:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Per executive decision from {{u|Evil Figment}}, the base stats and [[effort values]] articles are '''not moving''' at this time. This discussion, and the subsection below, are '''closed''' and will not be re-opened or re-started without executive approval. Additional comments are not allowed, and will be removed. - [[User:Kogoro|'''<span class="sc" style="color:#DA70D6;">Kogoro</span>''']] '''-''' [[User talk:Kogoro|'''<span class="sc" style="color:#FFB6C1;">Talk to me</span>''']] - 07:36, 4 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
===Target title for this page=== | ===Target title for this page=== | ||
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:I think calling them "base stats (fan term)" is going to be incredibly confusing. I'd rather use a separate term for them altogether. The guidebook refers to them as "The strengths of its species", so I guess "species stats" isn't that unreasonable. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 09:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC) | :I think calling them "base stats (fan term)" is going to be incredibly confusing. I'd rather use a separate term for them altogether. The guidebook refers to them as "The strengths of its species", so I guess "species stats" isn't that unreasonable. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 09:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:: I concur that there is effectively ''no'' official term for a species's base stat levels. The only game/app that makes them visible is Pokedex 3D, which simply calls them "stats" (if anything at all), and "[[stats]]" clearly cannot be used. --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 19:07, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | :: I concur that there is effectively ''no'' official term for a species's base stat levels. The only game/app that makes them visible is Pokedex 3D, which simply calls them "stats" (if anything at all), and "[[stats]]" clearly cannot be used. --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 19:07, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::PS - Personally I'd like a compromise title like | ::PS - Personally I'd like a compromise title like {{redlink|species base stat}}, because this is about the 'base stats' for the ''whole species'', and not for an individual Pokémon. And because we obviously can't call it "base stat (species)". --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 23:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::I think calling the fixed values species base stats would be awfully confusing, considering (individual) base stats. --[[User:WyndFox|<span style="color:#992232">Wynd</span>]] [[User talk:WyndFox|<span style="color:2B65EC">Fox</span>]] 02:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | :::I think calling the fixed values species base stats would be awfully confusing, considering (individual) base stats. --[[User:WyndFox|<span style="color:#992232">Wynd</span>]] [[User talk:WyndFox|<span style="color:2B65EC">Fox</span>]] 02:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::I just want to say that "stat levels" is not at all supposed to be an official term. The [http://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/xy/system/05.html Japanese] and [http://www.pokemonxy.com/en-us/whats_new/super_training/ English] pages for Super Training say pretty much the same things, so by comparing them, you can tell whether "stat levels" is supposed to be an official term or if it's just a simple description. So...where the English page says ''"The inside (green) part of the Effort-o-Meter graph shows the stat levels relevant to each Pokémon species."'', the Japanese page says ({{tt|translated|Original text: 内側のグラフは、ポケモンの種類ごとの能力を示している。}}), ''"The innermost graph shows the abilities of each Pokemon species."'' (or "''[...] abilities that each Pokemon species has.''"). The Japanese page actually devotes a little more text to that subject, and never comes close to actually defining any sort of "official" term. Therefore, it's clear to me that the English wording is nothing more than slightly clunky description that happens to sound like a "term". | ::::I just want to say that "stat levels" is not at all supposed to be an official term. The [http://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/xy/system/05.html Japanese] and [http://www.pokemonxy.com/en-us/whats_new/super_training/ English] pages for Super Training say pretty much the same things, so by comparing them, you can tell whether "stat levels" is supposed to be an official term or if it's just a simple description. So...where the English page says ''"The inside (green) part of the Effort-o-Meter graph shows the stat levels relevant to each Pokémon species."'', the Japanese page says ({{tt|translated|Original text: 内側のグラフは、ポケモンの種類ごとの能力を示している。}}), ''"The innermost graph shows the abilities of each Pokemon species."'' (or "''[...] abilities that each Pokemon species has.''"). The Japanese page actually devotes a little more text to that subject, and never comes close to actually defining any sort of "official" term. Therefore, it's clear to me that the English wording is nothing more than slightly clunky description that happens to sound like a "term". | ||
::::I don't even like referring to "stat level" as "the closest we do have to an official term". I don't consider it anything more than an accident. I would prefer "Species stat" for ''some'' clarity over "Stat level"'s kludginess. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 04:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::I don't even like referring to "stat level" as "the closest we do have to an official term". I don't consider it anything more than an accident. I would prefer "Species stat" for ''some'' clarity over "Stat level"'s kludginess. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 04:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::I agree that it would be more elegant to have separate names for base stats and EVs. However, we do not have an official term for base stats, as we now do for EVs, meaning we would have to make up a new term as this separate name. As an encyclopedia, it is our job to record information and represent it neutrally, not to create new information. Our articles should reflect the viewpoints of Game Freak and the community, not our personal opinions. Therefore, as it is clear that Game Freak has not provided us an official name for base stats, it would be irresponsible of us to use anything other than an established fan term. "Species stats" or "stat levels" may sound nice, but the only people who use these terms are those on this talk page. "Base stats (fan term)" or equivalent (please do suggest alternatives for the text in parentheses) is the only new title this page could have if it is to be of any practical use. [[User:Ninjask|Ninjask]] ([[User talk:Ninjask|talk]]) 22:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::The guidebook also refers to a Pokémon's base stats (what we once called base stats) as "the strengths of its species" (also referring to IVs as "the strengths of the individual" but let's get this naming fiasco done one at a time). Perhaps "Species strengths" is also a possibility? Keeping it as base stats (fan term) is only going to cause confusion. It really is a shame we can't get any official word on this. - [[User:Blazios|<span style="color:navy">Blazios</span>]] [[User Talk:Blazios|<span style="color:limegreen"><sub>talk</sub></span>]] 22:21, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::And it's not helping that "the strengths of its species" is not exactly a ''term'' so much as a phrasal description. (AFAIK, [[STAB]] is probably also technically a fan term.) --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 00:54, 13 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Anybody have any other suggestions for the name, then? This page has to be moved eventually. - [[User:Blazios|<span style="color:navy">Blazios</span>]] [[User Talk:Blazios|<span style="color:limegreen"><sub>talk</sub></span>]] 15:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
As I recall the article on Effort Values states the Japanese term has always been "Base Stats". While I usually resist change, I also prefer using the correct or official terms. Yes, it will take some getting used to and I will need to make revisions in all my Pokémon related projects, but the term Species Stats is more accurate and Effort Values (which that discussion is probably on that page) should be referred to as Base Stats to coordinate with the Japanese fans and the recently revealed term that Game Freak uses. As for confusion for the users at large, "Base Stats" would automatically redirect to Species Stats and an explanation would be in the opening paragraph. Thus educating the user on the reason for the change in terms.[[User:White Phoenix|White Phoenix]] ([[User talk:White Phoenix|talk]]) 20:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Somehow this gets complicated even further, given that one of the [[Pokémon X & Pokémon Y: The Official Kalos Region Pokédex & Postgame Adventure Guide|official guides]] refers to a Pokémon's base stats as their "stat growth rates", meaning that yet again, the possibility of this page being moved to that name needs to be discussed. At this rate, hopefully we can get the page moved and sorted by the anniversary of the discussion being opened. - [[User:Blazios|<span style="color:navy">Blazios</span>]] [[User talk:Blazios|<span style="color:limegreen"><sub>talk</sub></span>]] 12:59, 18 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
::I like the stat growth rate name. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|<span style="color:#87CEEB">Pikachu Bros.</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|<span style="color:red">talk</span>]])</small> 13:25, 18 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::Too bad it isn't used consistently. The guide later refers to base stats as "base stats" in the Power item descriptions ("makes the <stat> base stat easier to raise") and when referring to EVs ("base stats raised through defeating wild Pokémon"). At least it only refers to IVs as "inherent strengths", though only once. And things get complicated even further when you look at pokemon.com's online Pokédex and see base stats being called "base stats". <small>[[User:Glik|glik]]</small><sup>[[User talk:Glik|glak]]</sup> 13:50, 18 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::It's kind of used consistently, being on the Pokédex page for every single Kalos Pokémon (minus {{p|Diancie}}) and their [[Mega Evolution]]s and [[form differences|forms]], and for {{p|Meowstic}}, gender. [[User:Pikachu Bros.|<span style="color:#87CEEB">Pikachu Bros.</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|<span style="color:red">talk</span>]])</small> 13:52, 18 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
It seems that much of this discussion has come down to names individual editors have found used once or twice in press releases or guidebooks. Given that these are inconsistent and numerous, we now have a page of templates and move proposals above a half-page article, which is absurd. It's unfortunate that NOA translated the in-game term for EVs as "base stats", and given that Nintendo uses the term as fans do on the [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokedex/bulbasaur Pokemon.com pokedex], it was probably an oversight that they will have to deal with as well. These inconsistencies suggest to me that Nintendo hasn't decided on an official term for base stats yet, and that the guide writers and PR people are just making up terms that sound good to them. Who knows, maybe they'll decide on clear terms by the next game release and we can put this to rest. | |||
Editors in the main discussion on whether to move this page have mentioned that Bulbapedia avoids fan names because it is hard to reach a consensus on which name is most used. Indeed, on the topic of anime characters, the Manual of Style states: | |||
: ''Formerly, the style was to name articles based on whichever name a character was most "well known by". However, this created debate as to who judges which name is most commonly known, and thus created unnecessary conflict given how rarely a character is known to the English-speaking fanbase more commonly by anything but their English name. Hence, the style has since been abandoned.'' | |||
I agree with this policy and believe a move is in order. However, with no widely-used official name for what we call base stats, aren't any other terms fan terms? The proposed new names for base stats are constructed by the editors on this talk page, with ties to some published material to add credibility. Therefore, we only have fan terms to use for this title. Unlike with anime characters, however, there's no question as to what these statistics are "most 'well known by.'" Fans use base stats, some Nintendo sources use base stats, and if a user is coming to Bulbapedia to learn about Pokemon math, they will search for the term "base stats." The only time someone would search for one of the terms we have invented on this talk page is if they already knew what the new page title was, which makes the title useless as a descriptor. I've never heard any other term for base stats used in the fandom, and I personally doubt the fandom will create a new term (or start calling EVs "base stats," for that matter). | |||
I think we can all agree that the best solution would be for Nintendo to clearly state what nomenclature they prefer for both EVs and base stats. Barring that, it would be hypocritical of us to endorse an official term over a fan term while also endorsing our own fan term over an existing one. It is not our place to decide what terms our community uses; if editors here would like to encourage using a new term to disambiguate this whole "EVs vs. base stats" thing, Bulbapedia's mainspace is not the place to do it. As I have argued before, "Base stats (fan term)" is the only title this page could have for it to be useful. It's confusing, and it isn't pretty, but to use another name would go against the principles behind moving this article in the first place. [[User:Ninjask|Ninjask]] ([[User talk:Ninjask|talk]]) 01:32, 4 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
:We could just call it <tt>Base stats (species)</tt>, and have a {{template|samename}} on {{EV|the other base stats}}.,[[User:Pikachu Bros.|Pikachu Bros.]] <small>([[User talk:Pikachu Bros.|talk]])</small> 02:02, 4 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
::I simply do not see it to be feasible to call two different things base stats concurrently. Yes, when purely considering the best names for the pages without the others, "base stats" definitely must be used for the thing previously known as EVs, and "base stats" would be the best name for the thing unofficially known as "base stats". However, it is not practical to refer to both as base stats concurrently, since within articles we will need to use both in the same sentence; for example, "A Pokémon's stats depend on its base stats, IVs, base stats (fan term), and Nature" is simply going to confuse readers. It is clear that the guidebooks do not have a definite term for the subject of this article, instead just trying to talk about it in terms of "growth rates" without giving it a specific name. The EVs page does need to be renamed, and as such, this page also needs to be renamed; the problem is that we don't have a definite title. Since ultimately we are going to have to coin a term (as much as we should avoid doing that whenever possible), I suggest we do a community poll to determine what we will call this stat element (at least until we get an official name). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 06:50, 4 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
:::I see what you mean with the practical concerns; "Base Stats (fan term)" is even more clunky when used outside of a title. If we can get a consensus on what term to use, I suppose that would justify using a new name. I think that a disambiguation template, as Pikachu Bros. suggested, would be necessary on the new "Base stats" page if we do coin a term, as most searches for "base stats" will be for this page, not for EVs. [[User:Ninjask|Ninjask]] ([[User talk:Ninjask|talk]]) 15:41, 6 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::Hey, since it is actually above this part, you must have missed it, but this discussion is now closed. Here's the message: "Per executive decision from {{u|Evil Figment}}, the base stats and [[effort values]] articles are '''not moving''' at this time. This discussion, and the subsection below, are '''closed''' and will not be re-opened or re-started without executive approval. Additional comments are not allowed, and will be removed." --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 07:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
== 'Unofficial' status? == | |||
I do not wish to revive the whole above discussion ... but I would like to mention that Pokemon.com's online Pokedex pages ''do'' label these values as "base stats" (e.g. [http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokedex/hawlucha Hawlucha]). If that qualifies as official usage, then the term is clearly being used in two different contexts, and the page should note this somehow. --''[[User:Stratelier|Stratelier]]'' 16:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Interestingly, the Pokémon.com Pokédex now no longer says "base stats", simply saying "stats". I imagine this is to prevent confusion with [[Effort values|the stats officially known as "base stats"]]. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 09:52, 11 August 2015 (UTC) | |||
== Porygon 2 > Z == | |||
Should be mentioned Porygon2 and Porygon-Z on this page if their defence and special defence is lower after evolution? --[[User:Dominikololo|Dominikololo]] ([[User talk:Dominikololo|talk]]) 19:40, 4 June 2015 (UTC) | |||