Talk:Pokémon of Myth: Difference between revisions

Talk:Pokémon of Myth (view source)

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→‎Move to Pokémon of Sinnoh myth

Landfish7

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 ::I believe he thinks that Giratina is sort of the '''trio master''' of the '''duo'''. But I believe that they all are a trio only with Giratina being the strongest.•<small>'''<span style="border:2px solid #000000; font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Pokemaniac102|<span style="color:#000;">Poke</span>]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|<span style="color:#000;">maniac</span>]]<span class="explain" title="Piano">1</span><span class="explain" title="Playing">0</span><span class="explain" title="PWNS!">2</span></span>'''</small> 14:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 Everybody wait for platinum instead of saying "NUH UH MY THEORY IZ BETR THAN YERZ". [[User:Arceausams|Arceausams]] 23:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
-:I never said anything. I just believe what I said.<small>'''<span style="border:2px solid #0080FF; font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Pokemaniac102|<span style="color:#0080FF;">P</span>]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|<span style="color:#0080FF;">M</span>]][[Creation trio|<span style="color:#0080FF;">102</span>]]</span>'''</small> 00:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
+:I never said anything. I just believe what I said.<small>'''<span style="border:2px solid #0080FF; font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Pokemaniac102|<span style="color:#0080FF;">P</span>]][[User talk:Pokemaniac102|<span style="color:#0080FF;">M</span>]][[Pokémon of Myth|<span style="color:#0080FF;">102</span>]]</span>'''</small> 00:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 ::This is the same as the weather trio. They are a trio, but there's one that's seemingly more powerful than the other two. '''[[User:Hfc2x|<span style="color:#008800">h</span><span style="color:#000000">fc</span>]][[User talk:Hfc2x|<span style="color:#000000">2</span><span style="color:#008800">X</span>]]''' 00:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 :::Thats a good point but it would still be BETTER to JUST WAIT. [[User:Arceausams|Arceausams]] 22:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
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 ::Yeah, I figure this was done to show the primary type of each of the titans, but to be more align with the rest of the 'pedia can an admin change this? As the page is locked. Thanks. &mdash; <small>[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|<font color="#0000C8">THE TROM</font></small>]] &mdash; 09:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 :::The coloration (in those three rows, at least) is more to represent the differences between the dragons, rather than the types of their moves. If we changed Spacial Rend (and Roar of Time, for that matter), it'd mess up the aesthetics of the table. --[[User:Martonimos|((<font color="#008000">Marton</font>]] [[User talk:Martonimos|<font color="#50C878">imos</font>))]] 10:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
-::::But what about the tables at [[legendary birds]], [[legendary golems]], or [[lake trio]]? Surely displaying the correct type, as all other tables do around the entire wiki, is more important than making three colored lines. &mdash; <small>[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|<font color="#0000C8">THE TROM</font></small>]] &mdash; 10:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
+::::But what about the tables at [[legendary birds]], [[Legendary giants|legendary golems]], or [[lake trio]]? Surely displaying the correct type, as all other tables do around the entire wiki, is more important than making three colored lines. &mdash; <small>[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|<font color="#0000C8">THE TROM</font></small>]] &mdash; 10:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 :::::Ugh. I likes me my pretty lines. If it were up to me, I'd change the other pages... still, it's not. At any rate, I'll change it for now, at least. Maybe I can get my pretty lines back later. (And maybe they'll release Classics Soundwave, and maybe my classes won't be so hard next semester, and...) --[[User:Martonimos|((<font color="#008000">Marton</font>]] [[User talk:Martonimos|<font color="#50C878">imos</font>))]] 10:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 :::::Thanks. I admit, it did ''look'' better before, but a certain echidna once told me that we strive for accuracy at Bulbapedia. And here accuracy does mean correct typing. This "razz frazzin' [{{tt|adult|in body if not in mind}}]" thanks you for carrying out his "razz frazzin' edit" :D &mdash; <small>[[User talk:The dark lord trombonator|<font color="#0000C8">THE TROM</font></small>]] &mdash; 10:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
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 == Legendary titans ==
-According to [[Legendary titans]], these Pokémon were called the "Legendary titans" by Circuit City, but this page doesn't mention it anywhere. Can someone find the source and mention it on this page? --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 15:08, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
+According to [[Legendary giants|Legendary titans]], these Pokémon were called the "Legendary titans" by Circuit City, but this page doesn't mention it anywhere. Can someone find the source and mention it on this page? --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 15:08, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 : Not sure if it is worth mentioning; [https://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Circuit_City_posts_U.S._Platinum_release_date |closest to the source] as Circuit City went out of business shortly after accidentally leaking a game blurb about the Generation IV games. I can add this to the page in a moment. Leaving the link there in-case any else is curious. ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 16:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
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 I support the move from creation trio to Primordial chaos. Its like with the Legendary Titans and Super ancient-Pokemon, its an official term and its fitting. A trio of Legendaries born form chaos at the very beginning of the universe thanks to Arceus. The perks of Legends Arceus, reveling more facts on this fun powerful trio.--[[User:Jacob9594|Jacob9594 ]] ([[User talk:Jacob9594|talk]]) 04:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 :Will need more context for this term.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 05:52, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
-::Durning Eternal Battle Reverie, you get to the option of facing different variety of Pokemon. The category options name are usually a reference to a certain Pokemon like say The might of Sinnoh references and is Arceus who you face in battle or pick the Banished Pokemon and face Giratina.One of the option is Primordial chaos. When you click on it, you face Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, all three in their true Origin Formes. And according to legends, Arceus's egg was born from vortex of chaos. And then from that chaos Arceus created the Hisui/Sinnoh and [[creation trio]] from said chaos. Hence the term Primordial chaos as the Legendary trio, emerged from chaos at the beginning of when the universe was first created by Arceus. All three are in their Origin Formes. Does this helps with context or more information is needed for move to new title to happen?--[[User:Jacob9594|Jacob9594 ]] ([[User talk:Jacob9594|talk]]) 06:07, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
+::Durning Eternal Battle Reverie, you get to the option of facing different variety of Pokemon. The category options name are usually a reference to a certain Pokemon like say The might of Sinnoh references and is Arceus who you face in battle or pick the Banished Pokemon and face Giratina.One of the option is Primordial chaos. When you click on it, you face Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, all three in their true Origin Formes. And according to legends, Arceus's egg was born from vortex of chaos. And then from that chaos Arceus created the Hisui/Sinnoh and [[Pokémon of Myth|creation trio]] from said chaos. Hence the term Primordial chaos as the Legendary trio, emerged from chaos at the beginning of when the universe was first created by Arceus. All three are in their Origin Formes. Does this helps with context or more information is needed for move to new title to happen?--[[User:Jacob9594|Jacob9594 ]] ([[User talk:Jacob9594|talk]]) 06:07, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 == Move to Primordial Chaos ==
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 For the record, this page may be moved to "Pokémon of Myth" per [[Research Task (HOME)]]. (Primordial Chaos is rejected.) Someone just needs to do the dirty work of relinking/editing the old name. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 22:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
+:I feel like this move should have had community input beforehand. The new name is horribly generic and doesn't make it clear what Pokémon it is refering to. Besides, I don't even think the evidence provided is even proof that it's an official term — is "Legendary Pokémon" the official term for the specific grouping of Koraidon and Miraidon? Overall, this move makes no sense. [[User:Biblical Bambi|Biblical Bambi]] ([[User talk:Biblical Bambi|talk]]) 06:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
+::Dusting off my old account to comment that I agree, this change makes no sense. The Palkia and Giratina pages now say that this trio is "often collectively referred to as the Pokémon of Myth by fans" which is just a blatant lie, nobody calls them that. Also, if we're going with terms from Research Tasks, the Lake guardians should be called "Lakes of Sinnoh", or the trio of Cresselia, Heatran and Regigigas "Deep Within Sinnoh". The Research Tasks are achievements, I don't think they should be take as an official source of what a trio of Pokemon should be called. The names mostly refer to locations, and I believe "Pokemon of Myth" was chosen because that's what they are, mythical. I suggest moving back to Creation trio, that way people know what Pokemon are actually being talked about. [[User:Angela-Samshi|Angela-Samshi]] ([[User talk:Angela-Samshi|talk]]) 17:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
+:::"The Palkia and Giratina pages now say that this trio is "often collectively referred to as the Pokémon of Myth by fans" which is just a blatant lie, nobody calls them that." This was not a "lie", it was an oversight. The link was replaced without considering the context. Please remember to assume good faith. Thank you.
+:::Also, "Pokémon of Myth" was chosen because it's the closest to an official name that we have, unlike "Creation trio" which is entirely a fan term. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#00d1bc">'''Land'''</span>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#006699"><small>'''fish7'''</small></span>]] 19:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
+::::When you say "it's the closest to an official name that we have", you're admitting it's not an official name. And if we're gonna use an unofficial name, why not the one that people actually use and doesn't overlap with other terms like [[Mythical Pokémon]]? [[User:Biblical Bambi|Biblical Bambi]] ([[User talk:Biblical Bambi|talk]]) 21:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
+:::::To be clear, there was nearly a year for any comments people may have wished to make. I *am* sorry that we neglected to mention our alternative, but it's not like there wasn't time for people to chime in and make it clear that there was STRONG support for "primordial" chaos and why, which I think would've made it clear to us that a lot of people might want to offer critiques like above.
+:::::We do not think this is an unofficial name. We think this is the best official name/label the group currently has. There may later be a clearly better name.
+:::::We're more than willing to hear from more people. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 22:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
+::::::I apologize for my earlier comment, I realize it wasn't a well thought out point. To continue, Mythical Pokemon are indeed already a distinct group of Legendary Pokemon. Calling this trio "Pokemon of Myth" is just going to cause confusion, people are going to think it's referring to the likes of Mew and Celebi and not these. Mythical Pokemon are literally ''Pokemon of Myth'', and this trio is not part of that group, so calling them that doesn't make much sense. For the sake of clarity I think the move should be reverted, or moved to Primordial Chaos once and for all, even if this name may be official (however official the name of an achievement is). Primordial Chaos, while still not particularly super good as a group name, is a term that better describes the Pokemon involved, and can be traced back to a game. [[User:Angela-Samshi|Angela-Samshi]] ([[User talk:Angela-Samshi|talk]]) 13:12, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
+:::::::I did some more research on this. According to the [https://wiki.xn--rckteqa2e.com/wiki/%E8%AA%BF%E6%9F%BB%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AF%E3%82%A8%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88 Japanese Pokemon wiki], the "Pokemon of Myth" research task is named "神話のポケモン", which means "mythical Pokemon". This is the exact same term that Cyrus used to refer to Dialga and Palkia way back in DPPt. It was translated to "mythical Pokemon" in English, with a lowercase m. In [https://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/bdsp/ja/story/210928_01/ all] [https://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/bdsp/ja/story/211215_01/ current] [https://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/legends_arceus/ja/pokemon/220215_01/ official] [https://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/legends_arceus/ja/pokemon/220215_02/ instances] that I can find, Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are just referred to as "伝説のポケモン", which is the Japanese term for Legendary Pokemon. With this in mind I believe the term is used to refer to them as being mythical, not necessarily being ''the'' mythical Pokemon. "Pokemon of Myth" is just a different way to localize "神話のポケモン". Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are mythical Pokemon, because they come from the myths of Sinnoh. They are not ''the'' mythical Pokemon. [[User:Angela-Samshi|Angela-Samshi]] ([[User talk:Angela-Samshi|talk]]) 14:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::I definitely agree that HOME missions are usually a bad source for the names of groups of Legendary Pokémon; however, in this unique case, I think it can be justified. I would argue that Eternal Battle Reverie challenge names are substantially worse though — especially because the Eternal Battle Reverie challenge names care about forms ("Primordial chaos" is specifically the Origin Formes of the trio; compare the two challenges for the [[Forces of Nature]], which have different names depending on which forms are included). In Japanese, the challenge "Primordial chaos" is called 「根源」 ''Kongen'', which literally just means "origin" (although it's not the same word used in Origin Forme, it's clearly meant to be a synonym for it), indicating that the challenge is describing their forms and is not supposed to be a name for the group.
+::::::::Dialga and Palkia are consistently referred to as "mythical Pokémon" (lowercase 'M') throughout DPPt and BDSP. Obviously, we cannot call this page "Mythical Pokémon", as that's a different group of Pokémon and would be very unclear. However, it is notable that this issue is unique to English — in every other language, the term used to refer to Dialga and Palkia is distinct from the term for [[Mythical Pokémon]] (e.g. in Japanese, this group is 神話のポケモン ''Shinwa no Pokémon'' while Mythical Pokémon are 幻のポケモン ''Maboroshi no Pokémon''), and the usage of the same terms across languages is fairly consistent. So it seems like this term is definitely intended to be the name of the group, it's just really difficult to handle in English because its localized name clashes with another term (that was first used in English one generation after this group's name).
+::::::::That's where Pokémon HOME comes in. There is a BDSP HOME mission for collecting Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina whose title matches the term for "mythical Pokémon" (''Shinwa no Pokémon'') in every language (except English and French). That mission is localized as "Pokémon of Myth" in English, presumably using an alternate English localization in order to prevent confusion with Mythical Pokémon (''Maboroshi no Pokémon'').
+::::::::Because the term ''Shinwa no Pokémon'' is fairly consistently used to refer to Dialga and Palkia in every language (and HOME also uses it to refer to Giratina), I think it's important that we try to use one of the official English equivalents of that term. Of the two choices — "mythical Pokémon" and "Pokémon of Myth" — the latter is clearly the better choice.
+::::::::I will note that I only researched this cross-language usage after the page had already been moved, to ensure that I agreed with the choice. Had I done so beforehand, I definitely would have posted it on this talk page earlier. However, I have now detailed the cross-language usage on the page itself in the [[Pokémon of Myth#Terminology|Terminology]] section (which has more detail about edge cases than I have described here). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 14:58, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
+:::::::::However, as the user above pointed out, in other instances the Japanese term for "legendary" was used. It's clear that "mythical" is being used as an adjective, not as a title (If they called Miraidon and Koraidon "powerful Pokémon", would that make "Powerful Pokémon" the official name for the group?). Besides, "creation trio" is much more widely used, having 104,000 hits on Google vs. just 3,870 for "Pokémon of myth", with every search result for the latter term besides Bulbapedia using it to refer to [[Mythical Pokémon]]! It's clear that "Pokémon of myth" is an awful title for this page, and the placeholder of "creation trio" is infinitely better. [[User:Biblical Bambi|Biblical Bambi]] ([[User talk:Biblical Bambi|talk]]) 19:07, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
+{{Indent}}There really is no need to overdramatize this. We really only use fan terms if there's no other option, and we've been generally moving away from fan terms anyway. Pokémon of Myth isn't perfect, and not my favorite, but it's our best option in the absence of a proper official group title. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#00d1bc">'''Land'''</span>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#006699"><small>'''fish7'''</small></span>]] 22:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
+:The whole point is that there is not enough evidence that this is even an official term, as official sources have not used this term consistently to refer to this trio (as evidenced by no official sources showing up in the search results when "Pokémon of Myth" is Googled). There's an argument to be made that using a widespread fanmade term is better than a convoluted official one that doesn't see wide usage, and I have made that argument, but this isn't even a real official term. The search for anything resembling an official term is getting absurd at this point, since few people use "Pokémon of Myth", the few that do use it to refer to Mythical Pokémon, and it has seen no official use beyond one achievement name, which is not a standard that is being used to determine any other official names (else the Lake Trio is now the "Lakes of Sinnoh"). The old name wasn't causing any problems, why did you feel the need to "fix" it? [[User:Biblical Bambi|Biblical Bambi]] ([[User talk:Biblical Bambi|talk]]) 22:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
+::I feel like I've addressed these points, so just to be formal, I '''oppose''' the move to Creation trio. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#00d1bc">'''Land'''</span>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#006699"><small>'''fish7'''</small></span>]] 23:56, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
+:::I think the Japanese BDSP website has lead to some confusion; while they are not called "mythical Pokémon" on that website, they are consistently and repeatedly referred to that way throughout DPPt and BDSP. I count a total of 6 times the Japanese term is used within each of DP, Pt and BDSP, including [[Team Galactic HQ#Mythical Pokémon|the title of a report on Cyrus's computer]] that is specifically about those Pokémon. Cross-localization analysis is a really effective way to distinguish between purely descriptive phrasings and actual terminology — the fact that the term is fairly consistently translated in the same way across all languages is why I believe it is ''not'' merely being used descriptively.
+:::As I said earlier, I don't think HOME missions are usually a good source for group names (hence why I wouldn't suggest moving [[lake guardians]] to "Lakes of Sinnoh" — although "Lake Guardians" is an official term anyway). However, in this particular case, I think it makes sense to use HOME's localization of the official term that is used repeatedly in DPPt/BDSP, but only because it matches the term used in the games themselves in other languages. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 08:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
+== Move to Pokémon of Sinnoh myth ==
+I believe it would be more accurate to call this article "Pokémon of Sinnoh myth" to clarify which Pokemon the article talks about. There are several Pokemon with myths associated with them, and the page only talks about Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina. --[[User:CuteShaymin|CuteShaymin]] ([[User talk:CuteShaymin|talk]]) 04:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
+:This suggestion is rejected, as it is a fan designator, whereas Pokémon of Myth is the official title given to the group in {{g|HOME}}. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#32b761">'''Land'''</span>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#5f6775"><small>'''fish7'''</small></span>]] 15:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
+::It's a bad and vague official name, though. Is it really the law on here that official names must be followed whenever there is one? --[[User:CuteShaymin|CuteShaymin]] ([[User talk:CuteShaymin|talk]]) 20:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
+:::Yes, our policy is to use the most recent official name over outdated terms or fan designators, whenever possible. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#32b761">'''Land'''</span>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#5f6775"><small>'''fish7'''</small></span>]] 21:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)