29,889
edits
Talk:Signature move: Difference between revisions
→Gen 2 Mach Punch
CoolMan6001 (talk | contribs) |
Oneofthosedf (talk | contribs) |
||
| (42 intermediate revisions by 19 users not shown) | |||
| Line 914: | Line 914: | ||
:[[XD]] [[User:Unowninator|¿¡Unowninator?!]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 04:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC) | :[[XD]] [[User:Unowninator|¿¡Unowninator?!]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 04:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC) | ||
::XD however, is not a gen VIII game, and shouldn't be counted as one in this list. [[User:CoolMan6001|CoolMan6001]] ([[User talk:CoolMan6001|talk]]) 13:42, 17 November 2020 (UTC) | ::XD however, is not a gen VIII game, and shouldn't be counted as one in this list. [[User:CoolMan6001|CoolMan6001]] ([[User talk:CoolMan6001|talk]]) 13:42, 17 November 2020 (UTC) | ||
:::It's the same thing as Heart Swap: there's a way to bring the move in (though Magearna is more straight forward as it's a level-up move from recent games), but the move isn't usable so it's not counted at all. [[User:Eridanus|Eridanus]] ([[User talk:Eridanus|talk]]) 13:49, 17 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::There are some other cases like this, such as Xurkitree and Tail Glow, and Ribombee and Powder. But yeah, I feel like for a move to be listed as a signature move, it has to be usable. --[[User:AmbientDinosaur|AmbientDinosaur]] ([[User talk:AmbientDinosaur|talk]]) 15:49, 17 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
Have we reached an agreement here that it is safe to remove Psycho Boost from the listing for Lugia yet? Or should we discuss this further? [[User:CoolMan6001|CoolMan6001]] ([[User talk:CoolMan6001|talk]]) 03:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
:Well, Deoxys isn't in Sword & Shield, so I think it should stay. [[User:Unowninator|¿¡Unowninator?!]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 05:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
::This really goes into the debate of signature moves by technicality. In this *particular* instance Lugia cannot learn the move naturally by any means, let alone any event, and it can only be transferred from an old Lugia from generations past. Also, in this case I do not think it should be applied as a signature move because Psycho Boost is essentially soft-snapped: even though Lugia *could* have the move through transfer it cannot actually *use* the move. Since the move is rendered unusable in the game data as it stands, it should not be listed in my opinion since it is a "soft-deleted" move like Powder or Tail Glow in that the move itself cannot be used.[[User:ScraftyIsTheBest|ScraftyIsTheBest]] ([[User talk:ScraftyIsTheBest|talk]]) 06:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
== Defining "Signature Moves" == | |||
Yes, I have looked above and seen the different arguments for what constitutes as a signature move, but I'm not looking to change what it's defined as in this article. From what I've seen in the chart we currently have, a Pokemon's signature move is one that ''only it can learn through levelup'' in a particular generation or game. For example, look at Shellder's signature moves. In Generation I, both Shellder and Cloyster can learn Clamp by levelup, so it is listed as both of their signature moves. However in Generation II, Cloyster does not learn Clamp by levelup, and so it isn't listed there. Shellder still learns it by levelup, and therefore it is listed. Generation III, FRLG, Shellder is the only Pokemon to learn Icicle Spear by levelup, and so it is listed with a FRLG note next to it. HOWEVER, other Pokemon still learn Icicle Spear, but not by levelup. Generation IV, it is still listed as Shellder's signature move, as it is the only Pokemon to learn it by levelup still. Generation V, the Vanillite line learns Icicle Spear at level 1, so it is no longer listed as Shellder's signature move. | |||
Looking closer to the top of the chart, you van see Volt Tackle for the Pikachu family. No Pokemon learns Volt Tackle by levelup, and only Pichu by Light Ball and Pikachu by events get it, but it is counted as that evolution line's signature move. This makes sense, only this family can have this move, outside of Smeargle with Sketch. But since it isn't learned by levelup, does it make sense to have it? | |||
Herein lies the problem with the article; There is more than one idea for what makes a move signature. Is it a move that only one Pokemon or family learns by leveling up, like Shellder and Icicle Spear? Is it a move that only one family can have outside of Smeargle, like the Pikachu family and Volt Tackle? Or is it a move that most people know a Pokemon for, such as Magikarp and Splash? | |||
Personally, I believe a signature move is one that only one Pokemon or family can have. Moves like Confide don't make sense to me as signature moves, since more than one Pokemon family have it, even though only the Impidimp family learns it by levelup (or even by any means) in Generation VIII, as Pokemon can be transferred in that know the move Confide; as such it isn't signature. While this would cut down on a significant amount of Pokemon having signature moves, it feels like the cleanest and easiest to explain, at least to me. | |||
Maybe as a separate list we could have moves that only a certain Pokemon can learn by levelup? [[User:Found then Lost|Found then Lost]] ([[User talk:Found then Lost|talk]]) 19:00, 2 January 2021 (UTC)Found then Lost | |||
Honestly, I've been thinking the same. "Signature move" makes it sound like a move the Pokemon is often associated with. The page should be renamed to "exclusive move" which would better fit in line with what the page is describing, and that way stuff like Impidimp learning Confide can remain listed. There's much hoops to go into it, but usage of the words mean different things. Charizard is often associated with Flamethrower and is almost always seen being used on every Charizard, just like how Blastoise is with Hydro Pump and how Pikachu is with Thunderbolt. And with how quickly a move goes from exclusive in one game to the next (such Water Shuriken being exclusive in XY to available on other Pokemon in ORAS) the term "signature" doesn't make sense for this page. Its even more problematic for moves like Water Shuriken, where even after being given to Accelgor, in ORAS it is still commonly associated with Greninja the following game with not only Greninja's base form but with Ash-Greninja specifically. There is a section on the page that describes to associations, but its not a very well put together list. I'd suggest to rename this "Exclusive moves" and make a new list page with Pokemon being associated with certain moves that have explain each individual case such as "common occurrence and usage in the anime" [[User:TrainerSplash|TrainerSplash]] ([[User talk:TrainerSplash|talk]]) 05:07, 13 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Blast Burn/Frenzy Plant/Hydro Cannon vs Psycho Boost == | |||
Isn't the criteria for gen 3 Elemental Hyper Beams and Psycho Boost a bit inconsistent? The elemental Hyper Beams are considered one-off signature moves for the Kanto starters due to the Johto starters also getting them via XD - however, Psycho Boost is listed as a normalm signature move for Deoxys on gen 3 despite Lugia getting it on the same game as the Johto started get those moves. Wouldn't it make more sense to either remove Psycho Boost from gen 3 or (the one I think makes more sense) add the 3 to the Kanto starters since, on mainline games, they are the only ones who could get it? [[User:Ropalme1914|Ropalme1914]] ([[User talk:Ropalme1914|talk]]) 04:03, 1 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
:If only one Pokémon learns a move by level-up, TMs/HMs, and Move Tutors, other Pokémon learning the same move as an Egg Move, special move, or event move does not affect its status a signature move. Since Lugia only learns Psycho Boost as a special move, Lugia has no impact on its status as Deoxys's signature move. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 09:11, 1 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
::Then why did ForceFire delete Psychoo Boost from Deoxys' signature in generation 3?--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 16:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
:Yeah, which is the case for the elemental Hyper Beams: only Charizard, Venusaur, and Blastoise get their respective type move via move tutor on gen 3, no one else. If they weren't listed due to the Johto starters on XD, then neither should Psycho Boost, and vice-versa. We should either include both or none, not only one of them. [[User:Ropalme1914|Ropalme1914]] ([[User talk:Ropalme1914|talk]]) 02:30, 2 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
::I know I may be too late with this, but I agree that the elemental Hyper Beams and Psycho Boost should be listed. --'''''[[User:Bfdifan2006|<font color="turquoise">Bfdifan2006</font>]]'''''<sub>[[User talk:Bfdifan2006|<font color="lime">something to say?</font>]] · [[Special:Contributions/Bfdifan2006|<font color="orange">My work documentation</font>]]</sub> 21:28, 25 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
== sudowoodo is listed as having mimic as its signature move, but really shouldn't be == | |||
a pokémon other than sudowoodo can know mimic in gen 2 if transferred from gen 1. calling mimic sudowoodo's signature move is like calling cut kartana's signature move. [[User:Pikachu210|Pikachu210]] ([[User talk:Pikachu210|talk]]) 07:53, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
:This page ignores Pokemon that learn moves by TM/HM/TR or by Breeding because they don't learn them naturally.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 12:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
::how is breeding not natural? also, kartana is the only pokémon to learn cut naturally in smusum. [[User:Pikachu210|Pikachu210]] ([[User talk:Pikachu210|talk]]) 03:54, 17 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::Transferring a Pokemon that knows Mimic in Gen I to Gen II is not the same as catching that same Pokemon in Gen II and thinking it can learn Mimic. Transfer moves are ignored as it just goes without saying that Pokemon can know signature moves of certain Pokemon if you transfer it into a certain generation. Kartana didn't have Cut as its signature move for the entire generation, that's why it's not listed.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#00A1E9">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#59C2F1">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#BF004F">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D5598C">ire</span>]] 04:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Most signature moves == | |||
This award goes to the Partner {{p|Eevee}} in Let's Go with 9 (one for each Eeveelution plus Veevee Volley). <small>- ''totally signed comment from [[User:Kirbychu Showdown|Kirbychu Showdown]] ([[User talk:Kirbychu Showdown|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kirbych_Showdown|contribs]])'' </small> 14:29, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
== BDSP Signature Moves? == | |||
So, I'm curious - are moves like Dragon Hammer and Mystical Fire considered Signature Moves in BDSP? Only Tropius can learn Dragon Hammer and only Mismagius can learn Mystical Fire, for instance. I'm not sure if there's others, but I assume there are. [[User:Myzou|Myzou]] ([[User talk:Myzou|talk]]) 04:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
:If they didn't have it for the whole generation, then it's not a signature move.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 06:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
::There are a good few more exclusive moves in BDSP than those two, though. All the ones I could find for moves introduced after Gen IV are: | |||
::Snorunt line: Frost Breath | |||
::Pinsir: Storm Throw | |||
::Lunatone: Magic Room | |||
::Vespiquen: Aromatic Mist | |||
::Chatot: Confide, Parting Shot | |||
::Mismagius: Mystical Fire | |||
::Wailord: Noble Roar | |||
::Cacturne: Spiky Shield | |||
::Tropius: Dragon Hammer | |||
::Rapidash: Smart Strike | |||
::Do any or all of these warrant mention in an article? --[[User:OnyxaAstra|OnyxaAstra]] ([[User talk:OnyxaAstra|talk]]) 22:30, 1 March 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::I think that if the game cannot connect to the others of the same generation, then the move should be considered a signature move in that game only. A good example is Ekans and Arbok being the only Pokémon in LGPE to get Glare. --'''''[[User:Bfdifan2006|<font color="turquoise">Bfdifan2006!</font>]]''''' <sub>[[User talk:Bfdifan2006|<font color="lime">Or is he actually</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bfdifan2006|<font color="orange">Keyacom?</font>]]</sub> 22:34, 1 March 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::The difference between those moves and Heart Swap/Hidden Power is that no Pokemon can learn the latter in SwSh, so they become Signature moves once Manaphy and Unown learn them in BDSP. Smart Strike is listed as a teachable signature move in it's appropriate section. It doesn't matter if a game can't connect to each other in a given generation, there's no need to get complicated.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 07:07, 2 March 2022 (UTC) | |||
== "Only known Pokémon" == | |||
Several Pokémon species' biology sections include a sentence along the lines of "This Pokémon is the only known Pokémon capable of '''learning''' X move". However, some pages say "This Pokémon is the only known Pokémon capable of '''using''' X move", instead. Could we settle on a particular phrasing for consistency? I'm partial to the inital example I gave that uses the word "'''learning'''", although both seem to be used with near-equal frequency. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 06:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Additionally, there is inconsistency between the phrase ending with "the only known Pokémon capable of learning '''the move''' X" and "the only known Pokémon capable of learning X". Most pages seem to include "'''the move'''", so I'd also like to include it on the other pages for consistency. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 06:29, 9 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
::I'd say go with what a majority of articles use as the wording. And, imo, "learning ''the move'' X" sounds a bit cleaner, if that makes sense.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 07:29, 9 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree. As for my first point, "learning" and "using" are used almost interchangeably, with "learning" being used in 63 articles, and "using" being used in 64, though I personally prefer the former. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 07:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::"Learning" makes more sense, other Pokemon can "use" a signature move via Metronome, Sketch, etc..--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 07:52, 9 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::Makes sense to me! [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 07:52, 9 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
== "True signature move" == | |||
'''"Since [[Generation II]], the only true signature moves are {{p|Smeargle|Smeargle's}} {{m|Sketch}}, as it can copy almost any move, and {{p|Chatot|Chatot's}} {{m|Chatter}}, as it is the only signature move that cannot be sketched. However, since Sketch cannot be used in Sword and Shield, many moves introduced in that game are also true signature moves."''' | |||
I feel like this could be rewritten. As it is currently written, it essentially says "Sketch and Chatter are the only true signature moves... except for all of those new signature moves in SWSH" which just seems a bit clumsy. I also feel like it could be a bit more detailed in its explanation. Here's a version I came up with, but I'm open to criticism or other ideas: | |||
'''"Very few moves can be considered true signature moves due to the nature of {{p|Smeargle|Smeargle's}} {{m|Sketch}}, introduced in [[Generation II]], which can copy almost any move. Sketch itself can be considered a true signature move since it can only be learned by Smeargle and only other Smeargle can copy it. {{p|Chatot|Chatot's}} {{m|Chatter}}, introduced in [[Generation IV]], being the only signature move that cannot be sketched, can also be considered a true signature move. In Sword and Shield, Sketch cannot be used, making many signature moves introduced in those games true signature moves as well, as of [[Generation VIII]]."''' | |||
Let me know what y'all think. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 06:44, 17 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:You're missing generation I where Sketch wasn't introduced yet, and Bulbapedia's contrived definition of signature moves (that it has to be signature for whole generation to count) makes it difficult in generation VIII because in some games Smeargle exists and in some it doesn't.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 12:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
'''"Since Generation II, very few moves can be considered true signature moves due to the nature of {{p|Smeargle|Smeargle's}} {{m|Sketch}}, which can copy almost any move. Sketch itself can be considered a true signature move since it can only be learned by Smeargle and only other Smeargle can copy it. {{p|Chatot|Chatot's}} {{m|Chatter}}, introduced in [[Generation IV]], being the only signature move that cannot be sketched, can also be considered a true signature move. In Sword, Shield, and Legends: Arceus, Sketch cannot be used, making many signature moves introduced in those games true signature moves as well, as of [[Generation VIII]].''' | |||
::Added back in "since Generation II". As for Generation VIII, new signature moves introduced in SWSH and PLA are not available in BDSP, so most if not all of them would still be considered true signature moves by Bulbapedia's definition. However, I wouldn't mind removing the trivia point in its entirety since it's become muddied so much. Either way, I would like to hear some more opinions. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 06:50, 20 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::I think that rewording is fine. Though it's probably worth removing if Gen IX continues to not have all moves (including Sketch), otherwise it'll just become unclear and complex.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 07:06, 20 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::That makes sense. Thank you! [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 07:11, 20 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::I know we said we'd wait to see how Gen IX handles this, but as I'm looking at it, because of Gen VIII, there are actually a LOT of moves that can be considered true signature moves, not "very few". I'm thinking maybe we just go ahead and axe the trivium now? I feel like it's already become far too contrived. If we do decide to keep it a little while longer, at the very least I think the wording should be updated, since the use of the words "very few" is just not accurate at this point. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 06:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::::We can't get rid of it. It's a crutial fact regarding signature moves. I shortened it a bit and added additional two cases.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 11:34, 29 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
==Paradox Pokémon== | |||
Should Paradox Pokémon be allowed to share signature moves with their modern-day counterparts, like {{m|Present}}? [[User:PinkYoshiGaming|PinkYoshiGaming]] ([[User talk:PinkYoshiGaming|talk]]) 04:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Sine they're technically classified as separate Pokemon, probably not.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#44BAE5">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#85D2EE">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#DA7D99">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#E7ABBD">ire</span>]] 04:58, 21 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Volt Tackle? == | |||
Why is not listed in generation IX has the signature move of the Pikachu evolutionary line, and has far has I see there is no other line or Pokemon that uses the move, and the move is still available in Pokemon Scarlet and Violet.--[[User:Neos|Neos]] ([[User talk:Neos|talk]]) 19:15, 4 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Breeding == | |||
If a move can be learned by only one evolutionary family, but it can pass it down by breeding, does it qualify or not to be a signature move? Blastoise's Skull Bash is listed here, but Krookodile's Power Trip isn't and I don't understand the difference.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 10:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
==Gen 2 Mach Punch== | |||
Hitmonchan is under Inheritable Signature Moves for Gen 2 Mach Punch, but the only Pokémon that could learn it through breeding at the time was Tyrogue, so it would technically be a full signature move. Would the whole line or just Hitmonchan go under signature moves? [[User:PinkYoshiGaming|PinkYoshiGaming]] ([[User talk:PinkYoshiGaming|talk]]) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I personally wanted to list all of these moves as regular signature moves for the whole line, but I faced some pushback at the time. It was already a tough sell to separate inheritable egg moves, so I took the compromise. Following the logic of the page, Mach Punch should be a full signature move. '''[[User:Oneofthosedf|<span style="color:#D64933">Oneofthosedf</span>]] [[User talk:Oneofthosedf|<span style="color:#2877AC">(talk)</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Oneofthosedf|<span style="color:#64B823">(contribs)</span>]]''' 19:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC) | |||