User talk:SatoMew2/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

User talk:SatoMew2/Archive 1 (view source)

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Link fix.

Kogoro

Bureaucrats, Leadership Board, Administrators

16,517

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+{{TalkArchive}}
 ==Welcome==
 Welcome to [[Bulbapedia]], {{BASEPAGENAME}}!
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 == Re:"br" tags ==
-Just FWIW, I used <nowiki><br/></nowiki> because I prefer to be in that habit as a "best practice". This is because Bulbapedia will flag strings of multiple <nowiki><br></nowiki>s as "non-wikitext formatting" and throw [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning|this warning]] at you if you try to save it. I'll replicate this below as an example (and sure enough, when I first tried to save this, I got that warning), and you can fix it yourself if you like.
+Just FWIW, I used <nowiki><br/></nowiki> because I prefer to be in that habit as a "best practice". This is because Bulbapedia will flag strings of multiple <nowiki><br></nowiki>s as "non-wikitext formatting" and throw [http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning this warning] at you if you try to save it. I'll replicate this below as an example (and sure enough, when I first tried to save this, I got that warning), and you can fix it yourself if you like.
 Test:<br><br><br>Tested.
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 In your recent edits to [[Kris (game)]] and [[Leaf (game)]], you used templates that ended up making a redirected link to the Crystal and FRLG pages. Forgive me for being suspicious, but due to your recent move suggestions, I worry that you may have done this purposefully because that's the outcome you want. Whether or not that is so, let me just remind you to be sure that your links aren't redirecting. The link templates for the games do get confusing, so it shouldn't be too hard to remember to double-check those, at the very least. Thanks. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 23:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
+:That was my bad but the redirects are working just fine.
+:[http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Special:Diff/2334771 And the whole reason for "Ethan" is because of "Lyra"] so no, the conclusion isn't terrible, it's objectively accurate. {{ga|Kris|Marina}} and {{ga|Lyra}} are distinct characters and {{ga|Ethan}} has no official name in the context of GSC so there's nothing wrong with my assessment. "Kris" is invalid because you can't take a name that applies to both protagonists (in Japanese, which is the original source) and just pretend that it's only applicable to the heroine. [http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Special:Diff/2334760 And yes, "Leaf" is wrong] because the decision to call her that was made based on unreliable data without thinking about the consequences. If people have grown to call her "Leaf", then Bulbapedia is in large part to blame due to its popularity (Google even favors it on search results, or at least used to&mdash;dunno about the current status). [[Talk:Kris (game)#.7B.7Bunknown_name.7D.7D.3F|I already made my point clear elsewhere, by the way.]] [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff">SatoMew</span></b>]] 09:44, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
+::Let's jump past "the whole reason for 'Ethan' is because of 'Lyra'" and just take another look at what you edited... In your edit, you followed "Ethan has no official name [...]" with "This is because"; but there simply does not '''''need''''' to be a reason for Ethan to have no official name. That's just plain fact. Does he have an official name, yes or no? No? Okay.
+::When you accuse Bulbapedia (broadly) of "pretend[ing] that [Kris/Chris] is only applicable to the heroine", I understand you to be suggesting that if the female PC is at [[Kris (game)]] then the male PC should be at ''Chris (game)'' and not [[Ethan (game)]]. But "Kris" is explicitly acknowledged as an unofficial name, and "Ethan" is considered official (by Bulbapedia); the circumstances are different. So that's not actually a fair statement to make.
+::Leaf is still really simple. If you think it's wrong, get the page moved first. Once that's happened, then you can feel free to condemn the "Leaf" derivation all you want. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 11:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
+:::It's a fact but providing ''the'' reason preemptively answers the question "You state that it does not retroactively apply to GSC but why is that?" that people are likely to ask even if they don't enounce the question itself.
+:::Ethan is indeed official hence Bulbapedia's acknowledgment and use of the name. But it does not apply outside of HGSS, period. CHRIS is not more valid than GOLD like KRIS is not more valid than Marina. If CHRIS isn't valid for GOLD, then KRIS isn't valid for Marina either since they are named the same in Japanese and they both lack (known) official names.
+:::We all know that "Leaf" is not going to be moved anytime soon even if a move request is issued, just look at the long discussions on the talk page from years ago. That's still not a justification for presenting speculation or objectively false information. [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff">SatoMew</span></b>]] 13:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
+::::I just don't see that retroactivity is a concern either way. (I really don't think most people would ask themselves anything like what you suggest.) Long story short, that sort of addition is just adding confusion.
+::::You are confusing me quite a bit about Ethan/Chris/Gold... Is it your position that we should have separate pages for Ethan and for Gold? ...And for Chris?
+::::Please specify what it is you believe to be speculation or objectively false. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 15:12, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
+:::::No, Ethan is the same character as GOLD{{sup/2|G}}/SILVER{{sup/2|S}}/CHRIS{{sup/2|C}} so only one article is needed. We obviously don't need to mention SILVER since that's already the common fan name for his rival, which only shares the same name in Pokémon Crystal (SILVER) due to Game Freak specifically reusing Pokémon Gold's source code.
+:::::Green's article did not have false information per se but it legitimized the name "Leaf" just because it's used in internal data (heck, the whole article, including its title, is evidence of this). Since the article is going to stay at "Leaf (game)" then it might as well explain why the name is questionable, which it failed to do. [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff">SatoMew</span></b>]] 15:24, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
+::::::OK, so I know you accept Ethan as the male PC of all the Johto games. But for the life of me that doesn't shed any light whatsoever on your previous arguments.
+::::::Okay, so it sounds like there's no problem with the [[Leaf (game)]] page ''currently'', then. Great! [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 15:48, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
+== Underground/Mystery Zone ==
+Why do you say that "Mystery Zone" is intentional? [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 11:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+:Other non-unused areas like the GTS, Pokétch Company, etc. also don't show the location header pop-up when accessed normally but their header matches the actual name (accessing them from the void will trigger the pop-up). The Underground specifically uses the "Mystery Zone" location header, which was changed to the four dashes in Japanese PtHGSS; the Underground uses that too in Platinum. [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff"><span lang="ja">サトミュウ</span> (SatoMew)</span></b>]] 16:35, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+::I think you're just making an assumption. Why ''would'' they give it a "name" that's different than how they refer to it everywhere else? The more likely case is that [[the Underground]] is simply not supposed to have such a name, and so it gets filled in by dummy data. Sure, you say other places like the GTS have sensible names programmed, but that doesn't mean the Underground follows that pattern; in fact, IMO it ''doesn't'', because the name ''isn't'' sensible, it's entirely mismatched. I also tend to think that, if "Mystery Zone" were really some sort of "intentional" name for the Underground, then they wouldn't have had any reason to change it in Platinum.
+::The greater amount of evidence points to "Mystery Zone" just being a placeholder/dummy data/a fallback. 1) It shows up if you wander between the usual towns and routes (between valid areas). 2) It's at index 0. (It's [[List of locations by index number (Generation IV)|also at]] 2012, but I have no idea where that index might show up. But 0 (and therefore "Mystery Zone") is still a common error/dummy point.) 3) It simply ''sounds'' like an appropriate name for dummy data.
+::What I'm really wondering is, whatever defines that "title card" text for most maps ("Twinleaf Town" for [[Twinleaf Town]], "GTS"(?) for the [[Global Trade System|GTS]])... What's that value for the Underground's map? If you can't tell me that, I'm ''very'' inclined to believe that that "title card" is just falling through somehow to "Mystery Zone" and it's not really "intentional". [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 17:48, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+:::They only changed the string in Japanese PtHGSS but it's still location header 0x0000, according to Spiky's DS Map Editor (SDSME). Map 0x0002 "UG" uses location header 0x0000, which string is "Mystery Zone" in all English Generation IV games. DP's GTS's header pop-up is "GTS", Pokétch Company's is "Pokétch Co.", etc. [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff"><span lang="ja">サトミュウ</span> (SatoMew)</span></b>]] 17:58, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+::::Well then, as I said, 0 is a very common error/dummy point, so that definitely makes me think that that's ''not'' "intentional" and it was just never given a meaningful index. Let me ask, do you stick by the idea that the name is intentional somehow, or can I just remove the Mystery Zone section from [[the Underground]]? Should I perhaps query a staff member about the issue? [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 18:04, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+:::::There is no location header labeled "[the] Underground" in either Japanese and English games, so it was intentionally set to 0x0000 since the game is not fetching this data randomly and using it as fallback. The name "Underground" is only used in dialogue. [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff"><span lang="ja">サトミュウ</span> (SatoMew)</span></b>]] 18:10, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+::::::Well, I can't state myself anymore clearly than I did above, and you're taking a completely different view of it. I'll find a staff member to poke about it, then. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 18:14, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+:::::::I don't understand why you're being so pedantic about this. It is a fact that the game calls the Underground "Mystery Zone". The reason is unknown so we can only speculate but it doesn't change the objective truth. As such, the Underground is one of the unique Mystery Zone areas. It is also a fact that the Underground can be reached from the void in the early Japanese DP copies using a well-known bug and that doing so will have negative consequences to the player's save file if s/he decides to save there. [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff"><span lang="ja">サトミュウ</span> (SatoMew)</span></b>]] 18:23, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+::::::::I'm sure you know, but "speculate" is sort of a dirty word around here... I'm insistent because I firmly believe "Mystery Zone" is only meant to be seen when the game does not recognize where the player is. (I gave reasons for this above.) Let me put it this way: if 0x0000's text wre "DUMMY" instead of "Mystery Zone", it wouldn't be at all notable that the game ever "called" the Underground that; it'd just be proof that that info was never programmed intentionally. From my point of view, you're enchanted by the magic text "Mystery Zone", when it's really nothing more than a stylized dummy string. It's simply not notable. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 18:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
+:::::::::The game will fetch random location headers while in the void, Mystery Zone is just one of them. Even some actual yet unused maps use "Mystery Zone" while others use the main location's header (for example, the unused floors in Jubilife Condominiums use "Jubilife City" like the used floors, the unused Distortion World maps use "Distortion World"; the unused Great Marsh and record mixing room are "Mystery Zones"). The Battle Tower void is also a unique Mystery Zone because it doesn't behave like the common Mystery Zones, although they renamed it to "Faraway place" in Platinum.
+:::::::::From my perspective, it is "intentional" because the Game Freak developers had to define each map with a specific location header and they decided not to add extra headers (PtHGSS of course added more) and use "Mystery Zone" for some of them. [[User talk:SatoMew2|<b><span style="color:#4fd9ff"><span lang="ja">サトミュウ</span> (SatoMew)</span></b>]] 18:56, 23 September 2015 (UTC)