User talk:Nescientist/Project Trace

Template format

A couple issues that arose previously with {{User:TehPerson/learnlist/prevgen8}} that I realized no one ever thought to communicate:

• The Generation columns are bolded twice over. Once with the header ! and once with '''.
• The links to the past learnset subsections are probably not needed. They could even be confusing if a Pokemon learns a move in more than one way. If people can just get to the page, they can search it themselves.
• Also, the sorting has a couple issues. First off, the numbers just don't sort right. Second, for Pokemon like the Alolan examples, it doesn't work at all. This is probably due to hiding some of the Generation columns, a problem I've had in the past. (I believe the page just thinks the sort button for the second column applies to the second column it has data for, even if it's hidden.) That's one reason it's better to just "erase" the column/cell entirely if you can.

There was also a suggestion that the Generation columns could just be turned into checkmarks ({{yes}}). The column "header" could link to the page instead.

Also, I'll note that #ifexpr is generally a parser we want to avoid using a lot. It'd probably be fine for the past pages, but on the main species page, it could potentially be a problem.

I'm also curious: when you're doing Gen III transfers, how are you going to deal with the fact that individual moves don't actually have a physical/special attribute? Just use the one appropriate to the type and call it good?

Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

I know the questions were not directed to me, but I think I can add a thing or two. For generations I to III, I believe the idea is to keep the pattern we already have at the learnset subpages for these generations, without putting the damage category. We also would only have to consider this when transferring from gen I to II or from gen II to I, as you can never transfer to gen III.

About checkmarks vs generation numbers, I have a preference for the generation numbers. They are at least just as easy to read, and they follow the same idea we have for listing game abbreviations in move tutor learnsets. And personally, I also think they look more interesting than plain checkmarks, but that's just me.

Another unrelated thing: we should probably have a small list of related talk page sections and user subpages linked in the project page. Suic (talk) 01:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh, right, I was just trying to figure out where it might be an issue (thinking that maybe Gen I/II wasn't applicable since you could trade back and forth) and I completely forgot Gen III just wasn't connected.

That's a good point about the tutor templates on the past pages, I didn't catch that. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:43, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

The project page is just pure basics at this point. I'll be updating it (basically to a more useful v1.0) soon, and I'll take care that includes referencing. Nescientist (talk) 18:12, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

The project page is now updated, and we should keep it updated.

Who's working on the other points? Can you please agree/decide on which templates are being worked on, and add them to the WIP section on the project page? Nescientist (talk) 09:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Event moves

Between Suic and myself, we've had some ideas what to do with special/event moves (see here). We basically believe that those should be differentiated, most specifically that

1. Non-transferable moves shouldn't be listed at all (see WIP on these below)
2. Moves only available by events should probably be listed as tranferable, but should indicate as such. This is because it's gone for good if you don't have access to the event-only move; my exact wording/condition/definition was "Can I get it with brand-new copies (or would I need to have done/received something in the past*)?"
3. If a move is available by events in only some generations (such as we're in GenVIII, the moves is event-exclusive in GenVII but TM in GenVI), something should be done about it (waiting for ideas/discussion for these two; it might depend on how common that is)
4. Being event-exclusive in a generation should not exclude that move from that generation's transfer-only list

Are there objections? Is there anything missing? Are there any good/better ideas on how exactly to deal with them? Nescientist (talk) 09:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Result data

I think the initial movelist at TehPerson's userpages (linked on the project page) should be improved in the following ways:

1. It currently includes data from a public database; it should contain more comprehensive data
2. It should incorporate whatever the result of the above section is and use the finalized template
3. It shoudln't bold/italicize moves that deal direct damage and Hidden Power
4. It incorrectly lists moves that aren't transferable, we'd need to research what exactly those are (see below)
5. They're not complete, obviously

I'm working on these (for the first one, I'll try to pull Bulbapedia data), and plan to update the userpages accordingly. Automating what needs to be bolded will probably be easier than italicizing, which might have to be done manually. Or maybe I'll need a list of future move types per species or something!?

Are there objections? Is this missing something? Nescientist (talk) 09:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Transfer

I think we should really mainspace User:Tiddlywinks#Transfer.

As can be seen on its talk page, there's not much that's missing before mainspacing. I believe we should mainspace this now; it'll make a great link target from the transfer-only section's header, for example. Also, as mentioned below, it could be used to display what cannot be transfered. Who's willing to get this done? Nescientist (talk) 09:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Non-transferable moves

Someone may have to do some research here, but I believe those include at least

1. HM moves (possibly not all of them, and not in all generations?)
2. For Generation I (Time Capsule two-way transfer), any move introduced in Generation II
3. Possibly some field moves in some generations
4. Event-only moves learned in Generation I or II for later generations (because GB cartridge Pokémon cannot be transfered to GenIII+ games)

An exhaustive list/table would be great. I'm not sure, maybe this would go to the transfer page as well, possibly together with species that cannot be transferred? Nescientist (talk) 09:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Having such a list would be very useful. I think I started looking into this a while ago, I'll see if I can help to get this going. But if the list turns out to be too large, maybe we should include only the general rules and the special cases in the transfer page, instead of the whole list. Let's see.

Something else I just thought about is how we should deal with moves that cannot be used in Generation VIII. Should we even include them as transfer-only moves? If so, we should definitely have them marked as unusable. I'm also not sure if these moves even have power, PP and accuracy listed in Sword and Shield, but if they don't it would probably be better to list them as N/A rather than the values from generation VII (assuming we decide to include them at all). Suic (talk) 22:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)