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Talk:Worker (Trainer class): Difference between revisions
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::Agree'd. Because the games originate in Japan, Japan is the TOP canon, above all. The Pedia might be English, but it's the English translation of a Japanese game. Hence, why Japanese canon trumps English. Every time. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 00:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC) | ::Agree'd. Because the games originate in Japan, Japan is the TOP canon, above all. The Pedia might be English, but it's the English translation of a Japanese game. Hence, why Japanese canon trumps English. Every time. [[User:ArcToraphim|Luna Tiger]] * [[User talk:ArcToraphim|the Arc Toraph]] 00:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC) | ||
:::OK, but the English name still says that the two were meant to be the same, also possibly saying that the Japanese name was simply revised and changed. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|Snorlax]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|Monster]]. Help [[User:SnorlaxMonster/GlitchEvobox|here]] 04:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC) | :::OK, but the English name still says that the two were meant to be the same, also possibly saying that the Japanese name was simply revised and changed. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|Snorlax]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|Monster]]. Help [[User:SnorlaxMonster/GlitchEvobox|here]] 04:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC) | ||
::::English name means nothing: it must have been a mistranslation. They do that all the time. As with every single other defense we have had since the beginning of Bulbapedia: When the Japanese have intended for it to be different, it is supposed to be different. This is essentially putting two unrelated things on the same page.,..like mixing [[AG005]] with {{TCG ID|10th Movie|Explosive Birth Lugia|Promo}}. It makes no sense. ''[[User:Maverick Nate|<sup style="color:#00008B;">'''Maverick'''</sup>]][[User talk:Maverick Nate|<sub style="color:#00008B;">'''Nate'''</sub>]]'' 04:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::these two classes are not different. they just had a name change. and its not even a drastic name change, they just dropped the "middle-aged" part. they are the same trainer class, and the merge is staying. -- '''[[User:MAGNEDETH|<span style="color:#000033;">MAG</span>]][[User:MAGNEDETH#Interesting Stuff|<span style="color:#696969;">NE</span>]][[User talk:MAGNEDETH|<span style="color:#000033;">DETH</span>]]''' 06:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::No. It IS a complete change. The translation we have is stupid. The Colo/XD name is "Hataraku-no Ojisan" and the DPPt name is "Sagyouin". We just awkwardly translated them but those are totally different words. There is no proof that those classes are supposed to be the same. Okay they are both middle-aged physical workers? And what? They appear in UNRELATED games and train different Pokemon. Colo/XD and main games don't relate that much canon-wise. NONE of the classes originally debuting in Colo/XD made it into main games. It's naive to think that "it's one class from Colosseum which was later used in DPPt". Colo/XD had different developers (Genius Sonority) with their own ideas. We haven't seen GameFreak using ANY of Genius Sonority's ideas (we did see the opposite but that's not the thing). I don't see how an English name can constitute the fact that the class was originally supposed to be the same. It's just a translation - someone's else interpretation, NOT original idea. I don't even think that Nob Ogasawara remembers every Trainer Classes name he translated (it's a forgettable thing, especially those Colo/XD classes - they were so unmemorable and minor). I'm not even sure if that was Nob who made the Colo & XD Translation. Same translation really DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. Especially that Japanese have more words to describe one thing (usually Chinese-borrowed and Native Japanese, as in this case). The Japanese names are remotely different, they train different Pokemon, they appear in unrelated games (Colo/XD Workers were GS's idea, DPPt Workers was GF's idea. Those could develop independently). Really, everything we're excusing this merge with is English name. The English name should not be the criteria for anything. There are many COTDs who share the same name. And does it mean that they're same characters? Of course, Worker classes MAY appear similarly and happen to have same English title. But merging them just because of the similarity is like merging [[Channeler]] and [[Medium]] or [[Veteran]] and [[Expert]]. Also, both Bikers and Cyclists are called "Biker" in German. Does that mean that they're same class? Translations sometimes fail. There is no REAL reason for the pages to stay merged. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 13:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It's very sad that since I brought up some serious reasons the problem has been completely ignored. Such situations really question Bulbapedia's plausibility as a dependable information source. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 21:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::::We are not merging on similarity only. The name is the exact same in english. On the German wiki, Biker and Cyclist should be (if not are) the same article. The English name is not merely a translation when the entire wiki is based off the English part of the franchise. You say that GF never used GS's ideas, but here is an example of it. They just found "Middle-aged" too specific. | |||
::::::::I tried a few different translators, which either did a terrible job translating those two (さぎょういん is "I work clothes", はたらくおじさん is "Uncle works" or "The uncle who works"), or those are not very good Japanese names (I think it the translators' faults, but just bringing it up). I did use 3 different translators, so it may not be the translators fault. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|Snorlax]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|Monster]]. Help [[User:SnorlaxMonster/GlitchEvobox|here]] 00:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Actually, no they shouldn't be merged because, as others have said, the Japanese name is canon due to being the first country where the games were released. If this were the Mario series, then the English name would be canon because games in the Mario series are released in English-speaking countries first. Because of this, I think they should be split. Also, the translations can vary depending on the sources, even though many of them aren't "worker" or "middle-aged workers".[[User:Turtwig A|Turt]][[wig]] [[Turtwig (Pokémon)|A]] ([[User talk:Turtwig A|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Turtwig A|contribs]]) 00:50, 24 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::It's not that the Japanese isn't cannon, it's that English is also cannon. The Japanese version never made it appear that there is any difference between the two other than the name which could be considered a rename, and the English cannon is therefore still valid. The question is, are these classes named the same in languages other than Japanese and English? If a majority are the same, we can almost confirm that the Japanese version renamed it. If a majority are differently named, then we can almost confirm that they are separate. I'm most interested in the other Latin-based languages versions as it would be unlikely for them to include "Middle-aged".--[[User:SnorlaxMonster|Snorlax]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|Monster]]. Help [[User:SnorlaxMonster/GlitchEvobox|here]] 03:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::I wouldn't depend on the other translations that much. They screw up much more than English translation. Also, you have really bad understanding on what is canon and what is not. Names are not something that should be considered as canon at all. Those are just names. They don't consitute on what is the same thing and what is not. We have many characters that have same names (either in English or Japanese) but saying that they're all same characters is really ridiculous. Your statement that "Germans should consider Bikers and Cyclists as same class" is really pathetic. All that those classes have in common is that they ride two-wheeled vehicles. Nothing more. One of the classes are gangsters on motorbikes, the other one are normal people who enjoy biking as a sport. The difference is CRUCIAL. And it's really idiotic to consider the two classes as the same just because of the name. Translated names sometimes coincide. And the situation here is completely analogical. All those classes have in common is being physical workers. But they appear in unrelated games, train different Pokemon and have REMOTELY different Japanese names (Hataraku-no-Ojiisan and Sagyouin, those are completely different words which mean roughly the same thing. But it is NOT just about the "Middle-aged" thing. We just have awkward translations I'll replace them with something more literal). While the first two arguments confirm that those are two different classes while the third one confirms that they are two independent ideas that evolved independently in GS's and GF's minds, respectively (if they were "same class but renamed" the Jap. names would be at least a bit similar, wouldn't they?). We have no reason to think that they're same class. That's just a name coincidence, translators' screw up. If we went only by the names all the time, we'd have to dis-unify Cooltrainers and Ace Trainers, Cue Balls and Roughnecks, Fishers and Fishermen. But those are names. They're not always trustable. They're neither "canon" nor "non-canon". Those are simply same or different names. The name isn't the only way to identify something or someone. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 14:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
(resetting indent) Isn't this the same reason {{jo|Jimmy}} doesn't have information on the character in the game (the one with the Raticate and Arbok? [[User:Turtwig A|Turt]][[wig]] [[Turtwig (Pokémon)|A]] ([[User talk:Turtwig A|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Turtwig A|contribs]]) 02:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Well, Chronicles dubbers apparently took the names from the GSC Trainers of the same Japanese name (this pattern proves true for Jimmy, Vincent, Corey, Jared and Gilbert) so it is WORTH noting that they have the same name (since it can't be a coincidence). As for two Workers. Similar classes get similar names, it's a simple coincidence in translation. But the similarity of both classes is on the similar as with Channeler and Medium or Expert and Veteran. I see no reason for the pages to stay merged. <small>- ''unsigned comment from {{u|Maxim}} ([[User talk:Maxim|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Maxim|contribs]]) ''</small> | |||
::I think there should be a vote as there are many people that want them merged and others that want them split. [[User:Turtwig A|Turt]][[wig]] [[Turtwig (Pokémon)|A]] ([[User talk:Turtwig A|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Turtwig A|contribs]]) 16:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, I like these translations better than the previous ones, but can we have some samples of the Colosseum Worker's teams. You say that they are very different. If they do turn out to be completely different with DP Workers having Rock/Fighting/Steel teams and Colosseum Workers having different types altogether, maybe they should be separate. However, Colosseum Workers have very little information about them. A stub article and a highly similar article are less desirable than one complete article about a class with the same english name that has different Japanese names. As for other languages, they don't even bother to include Colosseum and XD classes, with them being so minor. Maybe we could have one page with a little information about each Colosseum Class and a page for XD classes and then information about a class with the same name as a main series game class on that class' page (so information about Beauties in Colosseum and XD on the Beauty page as well as on the list). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|Snorlax]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|Monster]] 02:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Split == | |||
As the page got moved, I'm reviving my request to split the page between Colosseum/XD and Main games class. The two have little in common, aside from coinciding names in English translations. Different Japanese names, different Pokemon, different worlds they appear in (no Colosseum/XD only Trainer Class has ever been imported to main games, so far). The similarity between them is no larger than between [[Medium]] and [[Channeler]]. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 09:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Different look? == | |||
In Black and White, their are men in the Freezing Container dressed in warm clothing. The page on the Freezing Container says that they are Workers. Like the Ace Trainers in DPPt, I think they have a different attire for cold climates. Anyone want to look into that? --[[Tracey Sketchit|<span style="color:#33CC66;">'''ケンジ'''</span>]][[User talk:Kenji-girl|<span style="color:#6600CC;">'''の'''</span>]][[User:Kenji-girl|<span style="color:#FF00CC;">'''ガール'''</span>]] 14:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Yes, those are Workers. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 14:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||