13,668
edits
Talk:Signature move: Difference between revisions
Undo revision 2528398 by Storm1051787 (talk) Please don't duplicate posts. Asking once is enough.
(Undo revision 2528398 by Storm1051787 (talk) Please don't duplicate posts. Asking once is enough.) |
|||
| (22 intermediate revisions by 11 users not shown) | |||
| Line 749: | Line 749: | ||
:In order for a Pokémon to qualify as having a signature move, it must meet one of the following conditions: (1) It must be the only Pokémon (or Pokémon family) to learn the move (excluding Smeargle using Sketch), or (2) It must be the only Pokémon (or Pokémon family) to learn the move by Level Up. At the time of this writing, Celebi's Hold Back and Inkay's Happy Hour qualify them for condition #1. If a later event is released giving the move to a different Pokémon, then they will cease being signature moves, and they will be removed. If a later game is released where the moves are available to more Pokémon, the same will occur. Celebrate and V-Create are good examples of this. They are event-exclusive moves, but they are available to multiple evolution lines, with Celebrate being found on both Pikachu and Eevee (plus evolutions), and V-Create being available to both Victini and Rayquaza. Shift Gear, Spacial Rend, Fusion Bolt, etc. are considered signature moves because their users qualify for condition #2, they are the only Pokémon capable of learning the move through Level Up. Snarl on Zoroark was a signature move of Zoroark in Black/White, however, it isn't listed because we don't list things by games, we list them by generation, and the move is not exclusive to Zoroark when you look at Generation V as a whole - which would include Black 2/White 2. Meowth's Gen 2 Pay Day is a signature move because it qualifies for both conditions in Gen 2. --[[User:GoldenSandslash15|GoldenSandslash15]] ([[User talk:GoldenSandslash15|talk]]) 04:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC) | :In order for a Pokémon to qualify as having a signature move, it must meet one of the following conditions: (1) It must be the only Pokémon (or Pokémon family) to learn the move (excluding Smeargle using Sketch), or (2) It must be the only Pokémon (or Pokémon family) to learn the move by Level Up. At the time of this writing, Celebi's Hold Back and Inkay's Happy Hour qualify them for condition #1. If a later event is released giving the move to a different Pokémon, then they will cease being signature moves, and they will be removed. If a later game is released where the moves are available to more Pokémon, the same will occur. Celebrate and V-Create are good examples of this. They are event-exclusive moves, but they are available to multiple evolution lines, with Celebrate being found on both Pikachu and Eevee (plus evolutions), and V-Create being available to both Victini and Rayquaza. Shift Gear, Spacial Rend, Fusion Bolt, etc. are considered signature moves because their users qualify for condition #2, they are the only Pokémon capable of learning the move through Level Up. Snarl on Zoroark was a signature move of Zoroark in Black/White, however, it isn't listed because we don't list things by games, we list them by generation, and the move is not exclusive to Zoroark when you look at Generation V as a whole - which would include Black 2/White 2. Meowth's Gen 2 Pay Day is a signature move because it qualifies for both conditions in Gen 2. --[[User:GoldenSandslash15|GoldenSandslash15]] ([[User talk:GoldenSandslash15|talk]]) 04:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
::Actually, GoldenSandslash, we do frequently list things by game instead of generation. See, for example, the Alakazam line's Kinesis in Yellow or Hitmonchan's Vacuum Wave in Diamond/Pearl. Also, your condition #2 is wrong; a TM is also enough to disqualify it, even if only one family can learn it by level up. (I strongly disagree with this criterion, but for some reason it exists.) In any case, I agree that TM95 being unobtainable in BW shouldn't make Snarl Zoroark's signature move, because if you do get a TM95 in BW somehow (tradeback or cheating), it is programmed to be compatible with tons of Pokemon, so it's ''technically'' in their movesets, and it's not programmed to be in Zoroark's level up moveset at all. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) | ::Actually, GoldenSandslash, we do frequently list things by game instead of generation. See, for example, the Alakazam line's Kinesis in Yellow or Hitmonchan's Vacuum Wave in Diamond/Pearl. Also, your condition #2 is wrong; a TM is also enough to disqualify it, even if only one family can learn it by level up. (I strongly disagree with this criterion, but for some reason it exists.) In any case, I agree that TM95 being unobtainable in BW shouldn't make Snarl Zoroark's signature move, because if you do get a TM95 in BW somehow (tradeback or cheating), it is programmed to be compatible with tons of Pokemon, so it's ''technically'' in their movesets, and it's not programmed to be in Zoroark's level up moveset at all. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) | ||
:::TMs aren't tradeable in Gen 5, so there has never been (and never will be) a way to teach a Pokemon a move via TM95 in Black/White without cheating. The only way TM95's compatibility is referred to at all in Black/White is by breeding a tradeback or this Zoroark. (Or a Smeargle that Sketched from this Zoroark or a tradeback, I guess.) And breeding doesn't disqualify a signature move. Why should unobtainable moves in a Pokemon's potential learnset count towards disqualifying a signature move? [[User:RiverShock|RiverShock]] ([[User talk:RiverShock|talk]]) 17:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Bone/Rolling Kick thing == | |||
The removed fact was: | |||
* Bone Club and Bonemerang are the only STAB signature moves throughout all 6 generations. | |||
I don't think Rolling Kick counts because Machop, Hitmontop, and Elekid can learn it. Thus the Bone attacks are the only true signature moves. (IMO, the only signature egg move is Volt Tackle) | |||
And in case someone says Kinesis, it does no damage, thus doesn't qualify for STAB. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 22:43, 8 May 2016 (UTC) | |||
:Regardless, Rolling Kick is still a signature move, "true" signature move or not. Once you try to add too many conditions to make a factoid seem unique, it just becomes not notable enough to add. --[[User:Carmenstar97|<span style="color:#95EB5C">Carmen<small>★</small></span>]] <small>''[[User talk:Carmenstar97|<span style="color:#FEBEE8">(Talk |</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Carmenstar97|<span style="color:#A6DAFC">contribs)</span>]]''</small> 22:56, 8 May 2016 (UTC) | |||
== Discuss please: Move Tutor vs. level-up == | |||
It has come to my attention on the {{m|Electroweb}} page that, for some reason, we consider it Joltik/Galvantula's signature move in BW, not in B2W2, again in XY, and then not in ORAS, simply because of the B2W2 and ORAS move tutors. This is frankly ridiculous and makes no sense whatsoever. It was also pointed out that Hitmonlee's Mega Kick is also subject to this problem in Gen III. | |||
The fact is that, in a post-Gen III world in which Pokémon can be and regularly are transferred forward and in which Move Tutor availability is extremely broad in some games and extremely narrow in others, the current criteria for signature moves are obscure, difficult to divine, and needlessly convoluted. The simple fact should be that if a Pokémon or evolutionary line is the only one who can learn a move (barring events), that should be its signature move, and if any other Pokémon can have legal access to it by any means (including intergenerational transfer), it should not be considered a signature move. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 19:32, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:I've actually agreed with that for a while; the only reason I undid your edit was because those were the rules lol. Can we please change this? [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 20:12, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::I think it's pretty possible to complain both ways. | |||
::We already exclude events or other special circumstances (or {{m|Pay Day}} wouldn't be Meowth's signature move in Gen II/III), and you can kind of view transferred Pokemon like events, if nothing else in the game lets you pass down the move or anything. (...It looks like Hoppip can learn Pay Day by breeding in Gen II, though; by that, I don't support calling it Meowth's signature move for Gen II, actually.) | |||
::I pretty much think a move should be a signature move in Generation [X] if no one can learn it newly outside of one family. Our intro is plenty ambiguous, though. If we could settle on one definition, I'd certainly love to make it much clearer. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 17:03, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::I think I both agree and disagree. I understand how it seems odd for Electroweb's status as a signature move to bounce back and forth, however that's not a particularly common occurrence, and I think it still fits in with the spirit of a signature move. After all, Audino had Secret Power as a signature move in Gen V, even though nearly any Pokémon could exist on those cartridges knowing that move through transfers. I disagree, then, that transfer availability disqualifies a move from being a "signature" move. I also think that the criteria for signature moves are in no way obscure or "difficult to divine", regardless of whether or not I agree with them. A move is a signature move 'in a particular game' if only one family of Pokémon—either evolutionary line or related Legendaries—can learn it without breeding. Transfers and events can be considered reasonable exceptions as they both require interaction outside the game itself (connection to another game or download server—conditions not pre-loaded onto the cartridge). Pretty clear-cut in my opinion. — [[User:Kianglo|<span style="color:#6900CC"><b>KiAN</b></span><span style="color:#AA66FF">GLO</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Kianglo|<span style="color:#00b7eb"><u>TALK</u></span>]]</sup> 04:19, 8 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::Why, then, do TMs and Tutors disqualify a signature move, but breeding does not? I have never seen a satisfactory answer for this, nor can I imagine that one exists. It's utterly arbitrary and senseless. It'd be better to have it all-or-nothing. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 04:29, 8 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::If a move exists as a TM or Tutor move, the game is telling you that there are many Pokémon that can learn it. Like, the move is being advertised to you as something that can be "taught". It's nearly impossible to explain; you either see it or you don't. All I can say is that it would make absolutely no sense for a TM/Tutor move to be learnable by one Pokémon (barring "special" tutor moves like Dragon Ascent; which are specifically mentioned to be FOR a specific Pokémon). Yes that happened in Gen I but we are far past that now. Breeding doesn't really carry that same weight, because when a move is gained by breeding, it is "passed down" by the parent who knows the move, rather than "taught" to the Pokémon from an outside force. That's really the best way I can explain it. It makes perfect sense to me. — [[User:Kianglo|<span style="color:#6900CC"><b>KiAN</b></span><span style="color:#AA66FF">GLO</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Kianglo|<span style="color:#00b7eb"><u>TALK</u></span>]]</sup> 04:42, 8 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::Pretty much. TM and Tutor moves are taught to the Pokémon and thus aren't natural. Breeding is natural as the move is passed down. As for Electroweb, that shouldn't count as it's only for a specific generation that it would count as a signature move, at least, in my opinion. Transfers are automatically excluded because the Pokemon that are transferred aren't from that generation--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#AB2813">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#C87365">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#26649C">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#729ABF">ire</span>]] 05:36, 8 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I'm confused by what you mean by that. Why shouldn't Electroweb count? Many other Pokémon have a signature move in a specific generation. Then again, I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make, or even what you're saying about Electroweb's inclusion on this list. — [[User:Kianglo|<span style="color:#6900CC"><b>KiAN</b></span><span style="color:#AA66FF">GLO</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Kianglo|<span style="color:#00b7eb"><u>TALK</u></span>]]</sup> 05:47, 8 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I'm saying that a signature move should only count for the generation, not the game, i.e, it shouldn't matter if it is Joltik/Galvantula's signature move in BW/XY, if it wasn't their signature move for the whole generation, it doesn't count.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#AB2813">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#C87365">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#26649C">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#729ABF">ire</span>]] 05:52, 8 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::So, if that's part of the definition we're going with, how should it be applied to various pages? It looks like after this decision was made, mentions of it being the Joltik family's signature move were removed from the Electroweb page, but not from this one. Is this an accidental inconsistency or is it not? Since this is the main page for signature moves, I suppose I could see it having a slightly less strict definition and have the main table use a game-by-game basis rather than a by generation one, while having it removed from move pages if it fails to meet that requirement. Since this is such an arbitrary, unofficial thing, having it take up space on the header of a move page if there are a bunch of disclaimers is probably undesirable. Still, there are plenty of other moves aside from Electroweb scattered across all generations that don't fit the 'whole generation' criterion. Once the stance on this page vs. move pages is resolved, they could easily be sorted out. | |||
:::::::::As for the other parts of the definition, I don't find that explanation for why egg moves don't disqualify a move from being signature to be even remotely convincing. Egg moves, TMs/HMs, and Move Tutors are all in the same boat for me — they are additional moves that can always be taught to a given species under the right conditions (right moves on parents, having the TM, having the payment/happiness criteria for tutors, etc.) in a specific game/generation. If we take signature move to mean a move exclusive to a given species/family in a specific generation with minimal influence from events and previous generations (this is what it seems to be right now), it makes no sense to exclude egg moves. For example, if someone had looked at this page and its definition, then started playing ORAS and found a bunch of Pokemon through the DexNav that knew Present despite it supposedly being exclusive to Delibird, I would not be surprised if they became confused. Maybe not the best example, but my point is, either all three of these 'additional move' categories should be included for signature move disqualification or all three should be excluded (and I much prefer the former). | |||
:::::::::The other two categories, past-gen moves and events, are more of a gray area to me, but since (aside from Gen I/II) it isn't possible to send a later-gen Pokemon back to learn the moves in question and 'born in current generation' is officially recognized by the pentagon in Gen VI , it feels like enough of a difference to me. Excluding event moves also makes some sense to me, since they're exclusive to certain special Pokemon and not any Pokemon of that species. I'm not so sure about in-game "event" Pokemon that don't hinge on real-world things though, like the gen 2 Extreme Speed Dratini, but that has the potential to make it more confusing. Unlike the things in the first two paragraphs, I don't feel too strongly about either of these. [[User:VioletPumpkin|VioletPumpkin]] ([[User talk:VioletPumpkin|talk]]) 14:48, 15 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::If we counted egg moves, we would lose a LOT of signature moves here. I think the implication of egg moves versus other moves is a good enough reason, as a move only obtainable by breeding isn't something that a particular Pokémon naturally has the ability to use (i.e. if you just go out and catch one, it will never learn that move, no matter what you try), and therefore it must be specifically passed down to an offspring by the only Pokémon that can naturally learn it. For example, {{m|Octazooka}} has been consistently regarded as {{p|Octillery}}'s signature move; {{p|Horsea}} can learn it, but '''only through direct involvement with an Octillery'''. It will never learn Octazooka unless there is an Octillery involved somewhere in its lineage. A {{p|Pichu}} will never learn {{m|Present}} unless it has a {{p|Delibird}} somewhere in its "family tree". | |||
::::::::::DexNav seems to throw a bit of a wrench into the "natural" idea with the wild egg moves thing, but that seems to just be more of a user-friendly feature so that players have a chance to gain access to egg moves that they might not be able to get otherwise, and also so players have the ability to take advantage of egg moves during story mode (since I imagine very few people take the time to chain-breed then), and perhaps even to introduce the concept to breeding novices, who might not have been dedicated enough fans/players to even know that it existed. — [[User:Kianglo|<span style="color:#6900CC"><b>KiAN</b></span><span style="color:#000000"><b>GLO</b></span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Kianglo|<span style="color:#6900cc"><u>TA</u></span><span style="color:#000000"><u>LK</u></span>]]</sup> 05:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::I think I understand where you're coming from now, and the issue seems to be one of opposing perspectives about what this whole vague term means. The people wanting to exclude egg moves seem to be coming from a sort of 'biological' position, where the point about the move 'originating' on a certain Pokemon would make perfect sense. Others, like me, view it with a position based on 'exclusivity', where the question of where it came from doesn't necessarily matter so much, so long as it's obtainable through intended game mechanics. And more still will have variations on these positions, or completely different ones, since it's not an official term (like the people arguing that it should be the 'most-famous moves of a Pokemon' years ago on this talk page). For example, I've never considered Present or Octazooka or Electroweb or any similar move to be signature because they've never been exclusive through intended (non-Sketch) mechanics, even in their introductory generations/games. Since the current staff seem to agree with the 'biological' interpretation, and there's probably not much I can do to convince them otherwise despite the contradictions that annoy me in the current definition (which I admit is ironic because every definition of this is arbitrary to some extent), I'll just say that we'll have to agree to disagree and move on. [[User:VioletPumpkin|VioletPumpkin]] ([[User talk:VioletPumpkin|talk]]) 15:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
== Payday and Softboiled are omitted from Gen 1? == | |||
I don't really know how to do anything on this site-- I just made an account because I noticed this page does not list either "Payday" for Meowth in Gen 1, OR "Softboiled" for Chansey, when both of those moves were in the game. In fact, other than battling the Elite 4 over and over, Payday was one of the few ways to keep your ever-slimming wallet from drying up in Red and Blue, and it was this for this reason that I was rather disappointed by the lack of wild Meowth in Yellow version (however, Jesse/James' Meowth DO use Payday against you throughout the game.) As for Softboiled, you receive it via TM from a man in... I want to say Saffron City(?)... after you learn Surf and use it to get to his house in Yellow. Yes, it's a TM, but in Gen 1, Chansey was the ONLY pokemon who was actually able to learn the move from the TM. When you get it, the man even says to you "there's only one pokemon who can learn this technique!" (aside from Mew, obviously, but I assume Mew is a general exception in this thread...) | |||
[[User:GenericCola|GenericCola]] ([[User talk:GenericCola|talk]]) 05:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC) | |||
:No, actually, Mew isn't considered an exception. Mew learning Softboiled disqualifies it as Chansey's signature move. And {{m|Pay Day}} could be learned by nearly 20 Pokemon by TM, not just Meowth. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 05:49, 7 August 2016 (UTC) | |||
== official name == | |||
maybe the official name of signatures moves is "[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFWLoyZESAc&t=19s Unique Move]"? --[[User:Valepert|Valepert]] ([[User talk:Valepert|talk]]) 17:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC) | |||
== Clanging scales == | |||
Why isn't it listed here as kommo-o's signature movies. It says its it's signature move on the bulbpedia page for Clanging scales but not on this page. It even says on the website that "Clanging Scales is a move that only Kommo-o can learn. It scrapes the scales covering its body against one another, attacking with a great clamor. After using this move, Kommo-o’s Defense is lowered." The fact that only kommo-o can learn it means its a signature move [[User:Storm1051787|Storm1051787]] ([[User talk:Storm1051787|talk]]) 20:25, 2 November 2016 (UTC) | |||