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Talk:Signature move: Difference between revisions
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:Steel Wing is definitely a signature move, because even though it was a TM for several generations, Skarmory learned it by level up in all those generations as well, and was the ''only'' Pokemon to learn it by level up. If anything, I think it should be listed as Skarmory's signature move in Gen 2-5 instead of just 5. Skill Swap is a slightly trickier matter that will probably require a more refined definition of "signature move" to resolve satisfactorily one way or the other. | :Steel Wing is definitely a signature move, because even though it was a TM for several generations, Skarmory learned it by level up in all those generations as well, and was the ''only'' Pokemon to learn it by level up. If anything, I think it should be listed as Skarmory's signature move in Gen 2-5 instead of just 5. Skill Swap is a slightly trickier matter that will probably require a more refined definition of "signature move" to resolve satisfactorily one way or the other. | ||
:Personally, I think we should refine the definition so that it doesn't matter if a plethora of Pokemon can learn a move by a "lower"/"less common" method (i.e. TMs, Move Tutors, events); as long as only one family can learn it by level up, that is its signature move. (And if nothing learns it by level up and only one thing learns it by another method, that's also a signature move, of course.) But that's just my opinion. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 16:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC) | :Personally, I think we should refine the definition so that it doesn't matter if a plethora of Pokemon can learn a move by a "lower"/"less common" method (i.e. TMs, Move Tutors, events); as long as only one family can learn it by level up, that is its signature move. (And if nothing learns it by level up and only one thing learns it by another method, that's also a signature move, of course.) But that's just my opinion. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 16:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC) | ||
::In that case would you say that {{m|return}} is {{p|Lopunny}}'s signature move? Sure, that move was introduced long before Loponny was but Lopunny is the only Pokémon that learns it by level up. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 16:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::That's why I said Skill Swap (which is in the same boat) is a tricky matter. There should probably be a provision where widely/universally-available TMs like Return aren't signature moves unless the one Pokémon that learns it by level up has been able to learn it at least as long as the move has been a TM. On the other hand, something like Softboiled was obviously Chansey's signature move even in Gen 1, in which nothing learned it by level up and the TM was only learnable by Chansey and Mew (which, of course, can learn anything). Of course, those are both extremes on opposite sides of the spectrum, and examples that are somewhere in the middle (like Skill Swap) are more difficult to figure. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 17:24, 22 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== A few things... == | |||
First... Why don't egg moves disqualify a signature move? Due to them, moves like Present and Beat Up are VERY widespread, compared to moves like Softboiled and Needle Arm that get disqualified for very small numbers of other Pokemon. | |||
Second... Why does Volt Tackle count as a Pikachu signature when it can't learn it by any means itself? (It can only get it by evolving a Pichu that knows it <which should also qualify Raichu and a bunch of other families' Pokemon if this counts> or by events <which have been noted to generally not count>.) | |||
Third... Why does Sacred Sword (and relatedly, Fusion Flare/Bolt) count as a signature move for the Swords of Justice (who aren't technically related by family) when Rolling Kick (which only Hitmonlee and Hitmontop, who are related, can learn, excluding egg moves) doesn't from Generation 2 onwards? | |||
Fourth... Needle Arm isn't learned by anything other than Cacnea/Cacturne in Generation 4, either. (It's only marked as being signature in Generation 3.) | |||
Fifth... Only the Whismur line learned Sleep Talk, except by breeding, in Ruby and Sapphire. | |||
[[User:RiverShock|RiverShock]] ([[User talk:RiverShock|talk]]) 16:00, 25 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Misplacing == | |||
Is there a reason why Jynx (#124) is placed after Magikarp (#129)? I searched the rest of the list and didn't see this error again. [[User:PokefanR|PokefanR]] ([[User talk:PokefanR|talk]]) 23:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== outrage and dragonite == | |||
outrage was the dratini's family signature move in gen 2 and that isn't on the list [[User:0danmaster0|0danmaster0]] ([[User talk:0danmaster0|talk]]) 15:53, 24 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
:By level-up, yes. Charmander and Larvitar can learn it by breeding, so I'm not sure how to categorize this. [[User:Bwburke94|Bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 07:46, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Breeding is ignored for signature moves. Because by that logic, eg. {{m|Pay Day}} would be signature only in G3-G4 (G1 has TM, G2 has breed from TM and G5 has breed), when it's signature since G2. [[User:Marked +-+-+|Marked +-+-+]] ([[User talk:Marked +-+-+|talk]]) 09:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::actually I just didn't see it it the list lol [[User:0danmaster0|0danmaster0]] ([[User talk:0danmaster0|talk]]) 12:28, 8 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Nuzzle == | |||
Would Nuzzle count as a pseudo signature as it can only be learned by Pikachu and it's imitators? [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 09:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
:That seems notable, I guess, but I'm going to say no. It's like how Glare is only learnable by snake-based Pokémon (excluding breeding). Since all those rodents are unrelated by evolution, it just comes down to specifics on how the move is actually used (description involves "electrified cheeks"). --[[User:Kianglo|<span style="color:#6900FF"><b>KiANGLO</b></span>]] <sup>''([[User talk:Kianglo|<span style="color:#cc00aa">TALK</span>]])''</sup> 15:22, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Definition == | |||
This article doesn't give a clear definition of what conditions we consider a move to be a signature move and what conditions we don't. All it says is that ''Most are learned by leveling up but some can be learned through other means when no Pokémon can learn the move by leveling up''. There's no addressing what disqualifies a signature move: do TMs? do Egg moves? do event moves? do all of these disqualify in all cases, or are there special circumstances? There's been a lot of disagreement on this talk page about what constitutes a signature move, so we need to actually state ''our definition'' in the article so it's clear to readers. I would do so myself, but I don't know what that definition is to me because {{tt|our criteria make no sense to me|Really, Soft-Boiled is disqualified from Gen I Chansey on this page because it's a TM, but there's no mention of ''since Generation II'' in Soft-Boiled's article?}}. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 19:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Solosis line and Skill Swap? == | |||
Does Skill Swap really count as being a signature move for the Solosis line? Sure, they were the first ones to be able to learn it by level up, but many others could learn it through other means. Heck, the move itself appeared two generations before the Pokémon did. If no one has any objections, I think it should be removed. --[[User:RiverAura|<font color="#00CCFF">River</font>]][[User_Talk:RiverAura|<font color="#00FFCC">Aura</font>]] 00:16, 15 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
:Yeah, it definitely doesn't fit since it can be taught by Move Tutor in the same Generation it's listed as being a signature move in. [[User:Glik|Glik]] ([[User talk:Glik|talk]]) 00:31, 15 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Event moves... == | |||
Should Hold Back and Happy Hour really be considered signature moves? They're not naturally known by any Pokemon, and several moves that otherwise qualify as Signature moves on this list, such as Shift Gear, Spacial Rend and Fusion Bolt have been given to event Pokemon. The fact they're only known by 1 Pokemon seems meaningless since any Pokemon could (and in all probability, will) be given them. (And again, no Pokemon actually learns them naturally.) | |||
Incidentally, the list of "One-off signature moves" is rather incomplete. (Being both outdated, and lacking some earlier ones like XD's Frenzy Plant/Blast Burn/Hydro Cannon Gen 2 starters.) | |||
Given Egg Moves seem to be ignored, Whismur/Loudred/Exploud should have Sleep Talk as a signature move in Ruby/Sapphire and Spoink/Grumpig should have Magic Coat as a signature move in the entirety of Gen 3. If Hold Back and Happy Hour are deemed to be valid signature moves, then Snarl should be a signature move of Zoroark in Black/White since TM95 wasn't legitimately obtainable, and thus event Zoroark (or a trade back from BW2, which also shouldn't count, since otherwise it would disqualify things like Meowth's Gen 2 Pay Day) is the only Pokemon that can know it outside breeding in those games. [[User:RiverShock|RiverShock]] ([[User talk:RiverShock|talk]]) 23:54, 30 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
:In order for a Pokémon to qualify as having a signature move, it must meet one of the following conditions: (1) It must be the only Pokémon (or Pokémon family) to learn the move (excluding Smeargle using Sketch), or (2) It must be the only Pokémon (or Pokémon family) to learn the move by Level Up. At the time of this writing, Celebi's Hold Back and Inkay's Happy Hour qualify them for condition #1. If a later event is released giving the move to a different Pokémon, then they will cease being signature moves, and they will be removed. If a later game is released where the moves are available to more Pokémon, the same will occur. Celebrate and V-Create are good examples of this. They are event-exclusive moves, but they are available to multiple evolution lines, with Celebrate being found on both Pikachu and Eevee (plus evolutions), and V-Create being available to both Victini and Rayquaza. Shift Gear, Spacial Rend, Fusion Bolt, etc. are considered signature moves because their users qualify for condition #2, they are the only Pokémon capable of learning the move through Level Up. Snarl on Zoroark was a signature move of Zoroark in Black/White, however, it isn't listed because we don't list things by games, we list them by generation, and the move is not exclusive to Zoroark when you look at Generation V as a whole - which would include Black 2/White 2. Meowth's Gen 2 Pay Day is a signature move because it qualifies for both conditions in Gen 2. --[[User:GoldenSandslash15|GoldenSandslash15]] ([[User talk:GoldenSandslash15|talk]]) 04:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Actually, GoldenSandslash, we do frequently list things by game instead of generation. See, for example, the Alakazam line's Kinesis in Yellow or Hitmonchan's Vacuum Wave in Diamond/Pearl. Also, your condition #2 is wrong; a TM is also enough to disqualify it, even if only one family can learn it by level up. (I strongly disagree with this criterion, but for some reason it exists.) In any case, I agree that TM95 being unobtainable in BW shouldn't make Snarl Zoroark's signature move, because if you do get a TM95 in BW somehow (tradeback or cheating), it is programmed to be compatible with tons of Pokemon, so it's ''technically'' in their movesets, and it's not programmed to be in Zoroark's level up moveset at all. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) | |||
:::TMs aren't tradeable in Gen 5, so there has never been (and never will be) a way to teach a Pokemon a move via TM95 in Black/White without cheating. The only way TM95's compatibility is referred to at all in Black/White is by breeding a tradeback or this Zoroark. (Or a Smeargle that Sketched from this Zoroark or a tradeback, I guess.) And breeding doesn't disqualify a signature move. Why should unobtainable moves in a Pokemon's potential learnset count towards disqualifying a signature move? [[User:RiverShock|RiverShock]] ([[User talk:RiverShock|talk]]) 17:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Bone/Rolling Kick thing == | |||
The removed fact was: | |||
* Bone Club and Bonemerang are the only STAB signature moves throughout all 6 generations. | |||
I don't think Rolling Kick counts because Machop, Hitmontop, and Elekid can learn it. Thus the Bone attacks are the only true signature moves. (IMO, the only signature egg move is Volt Tackle) | |||
And in case someone says Kinesis, it does no damage, thus doesn't qualify for STAB. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 22:43, 8 May 2016 (UTC) | |||
:Regardless, Rolling Kick is still a signature move, "true" signature move or not. Once you try to add too many conditions to make a factoid seem unique, it just becomes not notable enough to add. --[[User:Carmenstar97|<span style="color:#95EB5C">Carmen<small>★</small></span>]] <small>''[[User talk:Carmenstar97|<span style="color:#FEBEE8">(Talk |</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Carmenstar97|<span style="color:#A6DAFC">contribs)</span>]]''</small> 22:56, 8 May 2016 (UTC) | |||