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Talk:Leaf (game): Difference between revisions
→To be or not to be that's the question. (Or why is that even a question in the first place?)
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::I don't really see the point in making a page split for two iterations of the same character IMO. It's much simpler and easier to follow to keep all the information on her on one page. Let's just change everything to Green apart from references to the figure. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 02:52, 22 December 2018 (UTC) | ::I don't really see the point in making a page split for two iterations of the same character IMO. It's much simpler and easier to follow to keep all the information on her on one page. Let's just change everything to Green apart from references to the figure. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 02:52, 22 December 2018 (UTC) | ||
:::We do not have PROOF that they are the same character, but even that's besides the point. You are also ignoring that we resolved this issue with an earlier compromise (make one page but refer to her as "Leaf" in the context of FRLG) and people keep bringing the topic back up to try and push their view. The reason being that Green is clearly an attempt to revive the old unused character, while Leaf may or may not be a separate thing entirely. If it was "so obvious" they were the same character the whole time, why keep information about the unused character on a separate page until the release of LGPE, which doesn't prove anything other than to reintroduce the idea of the character of Green? --[[User:LavaringX|LavaringX]] ([[User talk:LavaringX|talk]]) 03:20, 22 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::FWIW I think people should get to share their own opinions about the matter. If their opinions are, like mine, that we should be using one name for the two iterations of this character, then so be it. | |||
:::: I do remember that the unused character's information was, prior to this whole debate, on this page, and I believe that it still should be, as it is a clear predecessor Green, but I don't understand how that changes anything about Green or "Leaf". If anything, IMO, it only serves to cement that Green from LGPE and Green from FRLG are one and the same. | |||
::::I'd like to go back to your first sentence though. I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but how is Green vs Leaf any different from any redesign for a main character in the past, many of which are even more drastic than this? --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 04:01, 22 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::::Although I still stand by my opinion, I am grateful to you for being civil and courteous on the matter and for discussing this in a rational way. Of course people should be allowed to share their opinion; however, I think we should stick with the compromise for now. To answer your question, the difference is in the complicated history of the character. The original unused character was never given a name or even made canon, and so everything that has come after, be it Green or Leaf, can only be seen as interpretations of the character. The Gold/Ethan thing doesn't count because "Gold" was an established character from the beginning, and the Brandon/Landon thing doesn't count because Brandon was an official name and an established character by the time of that figure's release. The LGPE Green was given her name as a reference to Pokémon Adventures and to canonize the unused character, which suggests, at least to me, that they intended for Leaf to be a separate character. Since we've been treating Leaf as a separate character from the unused character from the time of FRLG's release to the time of LGPE's release, I think we should stick with treating them as separate characters for consistency. --[[User:LavaringX|LavaringX]] ([[User talk:LavaringX|talk]]) 09:35, 22 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::::I think I understand your position a little bit more. However, up until November 16 of this year, information on the unused female protagonist was on this page-- we had been treating them as the same up until then, as I also believe we should continue to in the future. Additionally, I think that "Gold" from GSC was just as much of an established character as "Leaf" from FRLG. I don't really think that LGPE Green was given the name "Green" to canonize the unused character and to reference Pokémon Adventures, as she didn't really have a canon name prior to LGPE, just a placeholder name that was widely adopted by the community. | |||
::::::Basically, at least from how I see it, she didn't have a canon name before, and now she has one which is more in line with her [[Red (game)|two]] [[Blue (game)|counterparts]], and she also has a design which merges aspects of her two older designs.--[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 15:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I second this. Naming her after Pokémon Green/Blue is only natural, after they named the male protagonist and rival after the other versions. The naming scheme isn't exclusive to Pokémon Adventures, so I don't see it as a reference to it. In fact, that wasn't even the only manga to name her that. Her counterpart in Pokémon Pocket Monsters[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Blue_(Ruby-Sapphire)] is called Blue too, despite being clearly based on Leaf from the remakes. [[User:Golden Trainer|Golden Trainer]] ([[User talk:Golden Trainer|talk]]) 02:39, 23 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Obviously they can be the same people. The USUM artbook even has a picture of Elio and Selene (SM style) direct replacement for new clothing. [[User:E9310103838|E9310103838]] ([[User talk:E9310103838|talk]]) 00:21, 25 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
{{indent}}So the way the article is currently written, it seems to be treating Green’s iterations from FRLG and LGPE as the same character. Putting my personal opinions on whether they’re the same character or not aside, this still to me seems super confusing. I know I’m beating a dead horse but honestly it’s ridiculous to have two names for (what we are treating as) one character. Assuming that they’re the same character, why does her being explicitly given a name in LGPE not override whatever Kotobukiya decides to name their figure, especially before it’s even officially released? Using two names for one character is honestly just confusing as hell to read, and the fact that one is from the games explicitly and the other is not just adds to that. | |||
We should use one name universally if we’re going to treat Green as one character, which seems to be what BP is wanting to do. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 13:14, 5 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
== To be or not to be that's the question. (Or why is that even a question in the first place?) == | |||
So, let's have one final discussion regarding any controversies on "Leaf" and "Green" being the same person or not (let's not confuse with this with the Green/Leaf naming controversy, which is a different, albeit closely related issue). The older ones seems to have become overlong and riddled with personal opinions without much regard to actual evidence on both sides. Things just got harder and harder to follow as time went on. | |||
Pros: | |||
* Same hairstyle as seen on FRLG and Gen I artwork. | |||
* Obvious FRLG influences on her attire (backpack is exactly the same from FRLG, and that little pattern on the collar is now blue) | |||
* Red and Blue are 'slightly updated' Gen I-like designs, so Green was changed accordingly to fit the theme (Remember Sugimori said he just updated the Gen I girl for the female FRLG protagonist, rather than creating a new character from scratch). | |||
* "Leaf" trademark pose from the FRLG Trainer Card is the same as Green's challenging pose from LGPE, hair flip and all. | |||
Cons: | |||
* Someone asked Ken Sugimori on Twitter about her default FRLG name, and he responded "Leaf... Maybe?" | |||
** However, 'default name' in a broader sense, 'may' not necessarily mean the same thing as the "canon name" to be used throughout the game series. The [[Blue (game)|Generation I Rival]]'s canon name is "Blue" for example, despite that not being a default name for him in [[Pokémon Blue]] or the remakes. | |||
It's extremely unlikely anyone from The Pokémon Company or Game Freak will ever issue a formal, definite statement on such a simplistic matter. So I think the best solution would be a voting session once we compile a few more Pros and Cons. -- [[User:Yagamitaichi|Yagamitaichi]] ([[User talk:Yagamitaichi|talk]]) 15:40, 23 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:The figure outright calls her Leaf, which I suppose is a "con" for those who think they're one and the same. [[User:Bwburke94|bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 17:59, 23 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
::The '''announcement'''. Why do people forget that? The figure hasn't been released yet, and could easily change upon release. [[User:Sinjoh|Sinjoh]] ([[User talk:Sinjoh|talk]]) 18:52, 23 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:An additional pro on the deisgn front could be the wrist bands. They're black in the FrLg design and white in the LGP!E! design, but that could be because the Gen 1 design had white gloves, which makes the wrists bands an interesting fusion of the two accessories from those two previous designs. [[User:Nikkie2571|Nikkie2571]] ([[User talk:Nikkie2571|talk]]) 19:27, 23 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
{{indent}}May I remind everyone what abcboy said in his comment: "If/when the Kotobukiya figurine gets released by TPCi in English, this decision will be reevaluated." Any sort of poll or discussion is moot. Until the figure gets '''released''' and we know what its name is (whether it'll be leaf or green), ''then'' something will be done. All this back and forth is just a pointless waste of time and effort for something that isn't going to happen until the figure gets released.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:29, 24 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:I don't see anything wrong with having the discussion anyways... --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 03:39, 24 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
::Discussion about what? As far as I'm aware, the discussion of what to name this page was already resolved and ended with abcboy's comment. Any other discussion should be left to the forums.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:50, 24 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::I just don't really like the idea of restricting discussion. I personally find it interesting to participate in discussions and read what others have to say. After all, that is what the talk pages are for. I don't think it would be suited towards the forums because it is about this Bulbapedia page at its core. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 04:41, 24 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::@ForceFire, discussion about whether Leaf and Green are the same person, since someone decided to add a "The contents of this article have been suggested to be split into Green (game) and Leaf (game)" banner at the top of Green's page after abcboy's comment. And to be honest, my major problem with the Leaf/Green thing is why a figurine is being used for her official name, when the games should be taking precedence over supplementary materials. Back when HGSS released, it was pretty much determined that Gold would be henceforth known as Ethan, regardless of the supplementary materials, such as the game guides or instruction booklets bundled with GSC, referring to him as Gold. Similarly with Brendan, he was referred to as "Orlando" in the ORAS demo, but the name Brendan was still kept when ORAS officially released. With Selene/Elio, since neither were given names outside of internal data, which is typically inconsistent for many PCs, it was decided to use supplementary materials for the basis of both of their names. Administration more or less set a precedent that the games come first before supplementary materials, and I don't understand why this precedent isn't being followed upon with Green. [[User:Sinjoh|Sinjoh]] ([[User talk:Sinjoh|talk]]) 16:19, 24 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
I think this is not difficult to understand XD. In remake line, she was named Leaf (Gen 2 girl named Lyra in this line), and in original line, she was named Blue/Green (Gen 2 girl named Crys in this line). | |||
She can be the same character or a different character. In some respects, the judgment of Pokemon Adventures manga is justified. Although I know that some people | |||
don’t think so. | |||
This page does not need to be split in my opinion. Crys/Lyra, Gold/Ethan, Elio, and Selene things already confused enough. I only want to change infobox picture to LGPE instead of continuing to use Leaf's picture. | |||
By the way, Kotobukiya has not changed her name and continues to use it now. Leaf does exist as an official name. [[User:E9310103838|E9310103838]] ([[User talk:E9310103838|talk]]) 00:28, 25 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
::Kris and Lyra have been confirmed to be separate characters, unlike Ethan, Elio, and Selene. Also except for the figurine, Leaf was never officially used as a name for the character. In addition, as far as I'm aware and can find, the figurine was announced as Leaf, and has yet to actually be released. Something that is announced can easily change once it's released, and also, let's not forget that the announcement came out shortly before Pikachu & Eevee, and at that point we had no confirmation that even Red or Blue were going to appear. She may've initially intended to be named "Leaf" in Pikachu & Eevee, but changed late in development, or the artist who designed the artwork for the figurine, Hitoshi Ariga, was unaware that she was going to be called Green in Pikachu & Eevee (he didn't work on Pikachu & Eevee, so this is possible), calling her Leaf, since that was the fan consensus name for her at that point. Fact of the matter, we don't know ''who'' exactly coined her Leaf, whether it was someone at Game Freak or Kotobukiya.<br /><br />Even so, the staff on Bulbapedia have already made precedence that the games come before any sort of supplementary material, as is the case of Ethan upon release of HGSS, and if there is nothing in the games that indicates a name, excluding internal data, as this varies for some PCs, then supplementary material should be used, as was the case with Elio and Selene. I would expect staff to be consistent on matters like this, as it reflects poorly on them, as they're backtracking on a convention they had already established. If a staff member went, "Much like Ethan in HGSS, Pikachu & Eevee establish that Leaf's official name is Green" there would probably be some people who would disagree with this, much like Ethan, but most of the people here would not be vocal about this as they are now. [[User:Sinjoh|Sinjoh]] ([[User talk:Sinjoh|talk]]) 03:32, 25 December 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::For real, somebody's going to have to ask one of the Game Freak higher-ups like Junichi Masuda if they intended for Green from Let's Go Pikachu Eevee and the player character from FRLG to be the same person. At this point, that's the only way we're going to resolve this. --[[User:LavaringX|LavaringX]] ([[User talk:LavaringX|talk]]) 04:22, 19 April 2019 (UTC) | |||
{{indent}}To continue to beat a dead horse, I still, after this time, think we should remove all references to the character being called "Leaf". | |||
We know a couple of things: | |||
* We are currently treating Green from FRLG and Green from LGPE as the same character, as we should continue to do, since we have in the past with character differences between generations with much bigger design changes and functional differences. See Elio, Selene, Blue, etc... | |||
* Green is the name used in LGPE. There is no official name used in FRLG. | |||
** "Leaf" was the name that Kotobukiya used prior to LGPE's release. | |||
*** Kotobukiya figures are not the main games. | |||
* TPCI has [[Ethan (game)|changed character names before]]. The solution was to go with the most recent name. This name change applied retroactively to games before the name change, like this article is currently NOT doing. | |||
* In the past, Bulbapedia has prioritized information in the main games over secondary sources. Currently, this precedent is not being applied here. | |||
* <s>Not that it matters, but this is one of the things that other Pokemon forums make fun of Bulbapedia for-- I've seen this exact debate being used as evidence of Bulbapedia's incompetency on more than one occasion.</s> | |||
The obvious solution is to call Green by her canonical name. Besides, as I mentioned above, the article is incredibly confusing as it stands. The whole Green/Leaf debacle turned what was previously a serviceable article into kind of a jumbled mess, and one of our poorer articles, just because of a difference in name and a minor change in design. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 01:23, 7 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Article Layout == | |||
I move to begin the article with a section on the unused Generation I character before segueing into information about Green and Leaf. Any objections? [[User:LavaringX|LavaringX]] ([[User talk:LavaringX|talk]]) 08:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
:I'd be fine with that. [[User:Bwburke94|bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 13:05, 9 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
::This page is kind of a mess and I want to try and make it more organized, clean it up a little. --[[User:LavaringX|LavaringX]] ([[User talk:LavaringX|talk]]) 10:18, 22 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
:::It's already in the trivia section. And the prototype character is '''not''' Green, Green is inspired by that prototype, but that does not mean the prototype is Green herself.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 10:27, 22 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
::::I think we should move it up from the trivia section to the front of the page. It's pretty pertinent. --[[User:LavaringX|LavaringX]] ([[User talk:LavaringX|talk]]) 10:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC) | |||
::::While ForceFire noted they are not the same, I feel it is fine being left in the trivia. It is A)Not the same character, B)a character which inspired Green's design. Most other pages with notable beta content related to them are just stuck into trivia as they are not something you would see during normal gameplay at all. ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 15:43, 22 February 2019 (UTC) | |||