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Talk:Ash's Pikachu/Archive 2: Difference between revisions
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=== On a different tangent: === | === On a different tangent: === | ||
[http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/showpost.php?p=1044357&postcount=62] | [http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/showpost.php?p=1044357&postcount=62] | ||
Since Piplup is confirmed male as of [[DP137]], this either means Piplup goes both ways or we just confirmed Pikachu's gender. - '''[[User: | Since Piplup is confirmed male as of [[DP137]], this either means Piplup goes both ways or we just confirmed Pikachu's gender. - '''[[User:Coffee|<span style="color:#{{cute color}}">Chosen</span>]] <span style="color:#6890F0">of</span> [[User talk:Coffee|<span style="color:#F8D030">Mana</span>]]'''- 03:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
== Belong? == | == Belong? == | ||
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== Infobox should have artwork instead of screenshot == | == Infobox should have artwork instead of screenshot == | ||
I believe policy says that if official artwork exists for a character, it is prioritized over screenshots. [http://archives.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Ash%27s_Pikachu There's plenty of Ash's Pikachu artwork.] [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 13:33, 7 April 2015 (UTC) | I believe policy says that if official artwork exists for a character, it is prioritized over screenshots. [http://archives.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Ash%27s_Pikachu There's plenty of Ash's Pikachu artwork.] [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 13:33, 7 April 2015 (UTC) | ||
:I believe a screenshot is used for Pikachu and Meowth to keep it consistient with the rest of Ash and Team Rocket's Pokémon. - [[User: | :I believe a screenshot is used for Pikachu and Meowth to keep it consistient with the rest of Ash and Team Rocket's Pokémon. - [[User:Coffee|<span style="color:#F85888">Chosen</span>]] <span style="color:#6890F0">of</span> [[User talk:Coffee|<span style="color:#F8D030">Mana</span>]] 14:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC) | ||
::But the rest of Ash's and Team Rocket's Pokémon don't have official solo artwork. Pikachu and Meowth do. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 09:25, 14 April 2015 (UTC) | ::But the rest of Ash's and Team Rocket's Pokémon don't have official solo artwork. Pikachu and Meowth do. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 09:25, 14 April 2015 (UTC) | ||
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:::[[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 11:28, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | :::[[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 11:28, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | ||
:::: ^^^^ Actually this is more appropriate, instead of talking either of just games or anime, it will confirm for both --[[User:Upratik 12|<I><span style="color:red">Pr</span><span style="color:blue">at</span><span style="color:green">ik_12</span></I>]] <sub>'' [[User talk:Upratik 12|<span style="color:violet">Talk</span>]]''</sub> 11:39, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | :::: ^^^^ Actually this is more appropriate, instead of talking either of just games or anime, it will confirm for both --[[User:Upratik 12|<I><span style="color:red">Pr</span><span style="color:blue">at</span><span style="color:green">ik_12</span></I>]] <sub>'' [[User talk:Upratik 12|<span style="color:violet">Talk</span>]]''</sub> 11:39, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | ||
::::: Maybe our policy should be if the gender/nature/ability isn't known in ''the primary form of media this Pokémon exists in'', we should use Unknown and use parentheses or a tooltip. If it's the primary form, then the confirmed gender/nature/ability in that primary form and parentheses or a tooltip saying what media it's confirmed in. This will be hard for Gym Leaders' Pokémon like [[Lt. Surge's Raichu]], though, since you could argue either the games or the anime is the primary form. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 11:42, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::We're not phasing out tooltips. There's no alternative for a large portion of its uses. And claiming touchscreen users might not notice or ignore the asterisk isn't a valid reason for not putting information on a page. While it ''would'' be nice to have the infobox separate different canon informations, there are other high-use templates that are higher priorities. <small>[[User:Glik|glik]]</small><sup>[[User talk:Glik|glak]]</sup> 12:07, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Just to clarify, I never said don't put information on the page. The question is where to put it. | |||
:::::::Using this page as the example, there are two Ash's Pikachu events. Once again, the events are ''based'' on Ash's Pikachu, '''they are not, in fact, Ash's Pikachu'''. I really think splitting the game one to be the later discussion - just like discussing the anime Tierno later in his article - is best; the anime Tierno and the game Tierno are treated as unique individuals, and the anime Pikachu and game reincarnations are as well. Therefore, since the game Pikachu is treated ''as a separate entity'', the information for the game representations ''does not belong in the infobox at all''. I think that's simple enough, and should apply to other pages. | |||
:::::::We might have to ask Kenji-Girl's opinion on this if we just can't agree, though. [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 14:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{indent}} The thing is, the infobox serves as an intro for the article, and so it should contain information on all things that apply to Ash's Pikachu, be it from the anime or the games. It works like this in each and every infobox. We have several articles of game characters that don't have an official artwork and we use a scan from a manga the character has appeared in instead of a generic game sprite. Nowhere it is said that an infobox should only have information from "the primary form of media". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but templates need to be approved by the Editorial Board before being mainspaced, right? If that's the case, it means Kenji-girl has seen this before and she's fine with it. While I can't speak for her, I think we shouldn't be discussing this, really. The Nature parameter wasn't added to the template to be left unused after all. If it's there, then it should be used. It's that simple. And now we're not only discussing a thing as simple as that, but we're bringing other topics into the table, such as the usefulness of the tool tip template, to drag this on forever. We're certainly not doing an infobox for each section, the one at the top of the page should cover all aspects. --[[User:Mikuri|<span style="color:#2b915e;">'''Mi'''</span>]][[User talk: Mikuri|<span style="color:#52cc91;">'''ku'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Mikuri|<span style="color:#8debbc;">'''ri'''</span>]] 15:49, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
:An infobox isn't meant to show every aspect of every occurrence of a Pokémon IMO. I mean, there are two Ash's Pikachu in the games; it's silly to say "It's this, but then it changes to this". The point is more that Ash's Pikachu from the anime is the primary reason people go to that page, and that's what the infobox is about; if we are saying that it has a Brave nature, for instance, then we are interpolating and guessing based on what is presented in the games; once again, games does not equal anime, as has been stated numerous times. I go again to an example I keep bringing up with [[Brendan]]; I stated in the past it should be under just that Wikilink, but it automatically redirects to [[Brendan (game)]] even though there is not a single Brendan in the anime. The reason is for "consistency". Maybe there's a template reason (like with moves and such), but if we're going to say that Brendan from the game is different than any Brendan that might possibly ever show up in the future in the anime (and he likely will not barring a surprise), then we can't just lump everything to do with every different instance of Ash's Pikachu in there. The anime one is the primary search term. Leave the infobox about it exclusively. Are other infoboxes needed? Ash's Pikachu can be a rare case where they might serve useful since it has other implementations, but I think keeping game info separate is a good place to start. Otherwise, '''we are literally guessing''' based on what another department puts out that has no connection to the anime. [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 16:39, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
::I'm going to clarify the above with a more coherent and direct reply. | |||
::Sticking with this page an an example, let's cover everything on the page: | |||
::*Ash's Pikachu (anime) - Definitely Ash's Pikachu and a protagonist (antagonist?) in everything anime just like Ash. | |||
::*Ash's Pikachu (manga) - Definitely Ash's Pikachu, a different Pikachu than the anime one since anime != manga != games, but still definitely Ash's Pikachu. The complication is that it keeps getting reinvented in every manga and seems to be a new character every time from what I'm reading (separate movelists, etc.; if they are the same they should be combined, but otherwise that's fine). I don't read the manga, so I couldn't pick that apart myself. | |||
::*[[List of Wi-Fi Japanese event Pokémon distributions in Generation IV#Ash's Pikachu|Ash's Pikachu from Diamond and Pearl]] (2011): "A Japanese event distributed an in-game representation of Ash's Pikachu"; "It is based on Ash's Pikachu". Therefore, '''it is not Ash's Pikachu, only based on it''', and should not be in the infobox. | |||
::*[[List of local Japanese event Pokémon distributions in Generation V#Ash's Pikachu|Ash's Pikachu from Best Wishes]] (2013): "Japanese Pokémon Centers distributed an in-game representation of Ash's Pikachu with its moveset based on the one known by Pikachu during the Best Wishes series"; "which are based on Pokémon featured in the Best Wishes series". Same point as above. It's '''based on''' the Pikachu, it is not that Pikachu itself. | |||
::If we are going to include in-game representations of the anime and manga Pokémon in the infoboxes even though they are clearly not the same and are merely creations by the games department (who watch the anime just like us), then we need to stop saying that game and anime are different things and merge everything together everywhere. That's how I feel about it. Keep game separate from anime. | |||
::Also: ''"The Nature parameter wasn't added to the template to be left unused after all. If it's there, then it should be used. It's that simple."'' The Nature parameter isn't there for us to put information about a specific instance of something that may not necessarily be true. Ash's Pikachu's actual nature is unknown, and I think it's safe to say that the anime doesn't use stock setups like the game does, so it's useless to even discuss what his nature truly is. [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 17:12, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::My sincere apologies for dragging this on, but I am legitimately confused by your recent arguments, because I feel as though you are contradicting yourself in several places: | |||
:::1) Tierno's page has Santalune City listed as his hometown, although it was confirmed in the anime, which, by your logic, shouldn't be there, so I'm a bit puzzled as to your using it as an example. | |||
:::2) Because of this, if Ash's Pikachu's nature can't go in the infobox because the event Pikachu wasn't really Ash's Pikachu, then you're basically saying that the anime version of Tierno isn't really Tierno, just some character based on Tierno, which doesn't make very much sense to me. | |||
:::3) Ash's Pikachu does not exist solely in the anime. Ash's Pikachu has been a character in the manga, has been the player's starter Pokémon in Yellow, and yes, has been an event Pokémon. It's impossible to completely replicate anime Pokémon in the games, but the event Pokémon is still Ash's Pikachu, even if it's not the anime version. As Mikuri said, the infobox comes from the entire article. If the infobox can't include information from the games or manga, then we might as well make pages called "Ash's Pikachu (games)" or "Ash's Pikachu (manga)". Going back to your Tierno example, the anime version of him is ''based on'' his in-game version, but it's still Tierno. [[User:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''AGG''</span>]][[User talk:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''RON''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Aggron989|<span style="color:#444444;">''989''</span>]] 18:46, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::1) Maybe Tierno was a bad example because I'm not that familiar with the article, I was just there recently on something else. However, given that [[May (anime)]] and [[May (game)]] are separate articles, it does also surprise me that consistency is not being applied now in cases like Tierno and is the reason for cases like Brendan even though there is only one existing instance of him. There is no consistency here anywhere and we either need to evolve to the "each case is different" philosophy or put the consistency in. (BTW. [[Serena (anime)]] and [[Serena (game)]] are unique entities. Maybe that's what we should do with Ash's Pikachu?) | |||
::::2) I have been considering that a new infobox separating anime, manga, and games might solve this problem. It's better than merging a line saying, for instance, that [[Serena's Braixen]] is Hardy in with everything else. Some don't know how to bring up the tooltips and will assume that Serena's Braixen has a Hardy nature in the anime, which is misinformation. | |||
::::3) Touche on Yellow, I did not consider that. However, I do not believe it has a fixed nature there either, correct? It doesn't contribute to the infobox in any way. But the split infobox idea might allow for all aspects to be covered; mixed together, it's a convoluted mess. [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 18:55, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::Quite honestly, I think we should agree to disagree and move on. I know we both have counterarguments to the other person's point of view, but that will be true no matter how many different points we bring up. We could keep discussing this for a week and it still won't be resolved. I'm not trying to insult you or get the last word or anything at all like that, but I think Mikuri's right that this conversation has gone on too long. [[User:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''AGG''</span>]][[User talk:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''RON''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Aggron989|<span style="color:#444444;">''989''</span>]] 20:15, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::It's only been a day, so if "too long" is a measure of length, then yes; otherwise, no. I still say there is a way to incorporate it in the infobox; just with the current implementation, it's not feasible and shouldn't be there. [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 20:19, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Yeah, I should have been more clear. Sorry about that. I just meant that this conversation has gotten really complicated and has had a LOT of comments in it and I feel like we're going in circles by this point. [[User:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''AGG''</span>]][[User talk:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''RON''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Aggron989|<span style="color:#444444;">''989''</span>]] 20:27, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Yes, I asked an EB member for a feel of what the verdict will be on this. Obviously, if the staff thinks the nature should go there, I have to respect that, but I still disagree with it because the game and the anime ARE different. I still think this article could be split, as well, since the History section alone is longer than most other anime pages (it's longer than May's and Iris', I'm sure). [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 20:37, 20 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{indent}}Okay, so the general consensus of the staff as of now is to remove all event exclusive related content from the main anime Pokémon infobox. Since we already have an event table on the page, the event exclusive information can be reserved for that space only. They way we view it is that the anime Pokémon and it's event counterpart is not intended to be one and the same. Plus, the games have to have natures & abilities. They're mandatory for the Pokemon to work properly. So, there's no guarantee that the abilities or natures used on an event are actually correct per the anime, unless the anime confirms it itself. This state of thought fits in with Bulbapedia's general games=/=anime stance. '''''[[User:Pokemaster97|<span style="color:Blue;">--Pokemaster</span>]][[User talk:Pokemaster97|<span style="color:Blue;">97</span>]]''''' 04:08, 23 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
:That's kinda what I thought. I am glad we have a consensus on it regardless so that we can apply it throughout the articles. I'll keep an eye out for things listed as confirmed by game events in the anime articles. [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 04:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC) | |||