Bulbapedia talk:Project TCG: Difference between revisions

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4iamking

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 :Super late to this but im seconding the R=Fire / N=Dragon / Y=Fairy change. If it has precedent in PTCGL i think it's good enough to implement here. [[User:Anzasquiddles|'''<span style="color:#CF7A87;">an</span><span style="color:#2F2C2E;"><span lang="ja" style="margin: 0px;">Z</span></span><span style="color:#297E55;"><span lang="ja" style="margin: 0px;">A</span></span><span style="color:#CF7A87;">squiddles</span>''']] <small>2222(:D)SSSS</small> ([[User talk:Anzasquiddles|talk]]) 03:05, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 ::4iamking already implemented type codes into the {{template|e}} template, so I guess I could move these pages. Or someone who can suppress redirects while moving can. --'''[[User:Bfdifan2006|<span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#f83,#3fa);background-clip:text;color:transparent">Bfdifan2006</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Bfdifan2006|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bfdifan2006|contribs]]) 19:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::Don't see why we'd want to suppress the redirects, they'd still be useful for people searching that don't know the type abbreviations. <small>[[User:Glik|glik]]</small><sup>[[User talk:Glik|glak]]</sup> 12:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+::::I see. I suppose these pages could be moved now. --'''[[User:Bfdifan2006|<span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#f83,#3fa);background-clip:text;color:transparent">Bfdifan2006</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Bfdifan2006|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bfdifan2006|contribs]]) 13:07, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::::To be honest, my preference would be writing the types out in long form over using abbreviations in the title; there is also the awkard case of [[R Energy (TCG)|R Energy]] clashing with [[Fire Energy (TCG)|Fire Energy]], though im of the strong opinion that the basic energy pages should be moved. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 13:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+::::::"Blend Energy GrassFirePsychicDarkness" is the worst possible title. <small>[[User:Glik|glik]]</small><sup>[[User talk:Glik|glak]]</sup> 13:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::::::Worst named card; maybe... but if want to be litterally accurate thats how you would say it. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 13:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+::::::::As mentioned before, there's a ruling stating that cards on decklists should use abbreviations. With that, I'll move these pages. For Japanese, I will make new redirects as well. --'''[[User:Bfdifan2006|<span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#f83,#3fa);background-clip:text;color:transparent">Bfdifan2006</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Bfdifan2006|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bfdifan2006|contribs]]) 15:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+(reset indent) The ruleing says merely that the energy symbols should be considered part of the name, part of the reason I dont like using the short hand is because it creates confusion with existing cards, and we already spell out the energy symbol for other cards that have them in the name, namely the basic energy cards, and it would be nice to smooth out that inconsistancy. For TCGL both forms of notation are equally acceptable. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 15:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+:i.e. "Fire Energy" is "Basic {R} Energy" in the game, but "Basic Fire Energy" is equally recognized and acceptable, the spelled out version just happens to be where we place the article as well. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 15:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
+::This is one of those times where having a policy makes decisions so much easier. Essentially, we're arguing over if we should use the full spelt out name for the title or the version that is seen more often, regulating the other to redirects and the article's body. (I think current convention favors the fullest version of names, but I can't be sure, it's not written down anywhere.)
+::Search bars read text, not speech, so I lean on whichever form is used in text. As it happens, I don't feel like running the numbers on if abbreviations or words are more common in offcial Pokemon communications. However, we can make an objective determination by seeing what TCG Live exports, as that is very obviously how it chooses to present card names in the absence of symbol use. (This is opposed to how TCG Live reads names. Reading should logically be more generous, because having an import fail kinda sucks. So what names Live reads can't be a decisive determiner.)
+::TCG Live exports use abbreviations, even for the Basic Energy. Even for the pre-SV printings of said Basic Energy. Which works, surprisingly enough, because all of those articles should have been moved to Basic ___ Energy anyway. With zero conflict to boot, with the exception of R Energy, which is a single card from ages past that a note saying, "R Energy redirects here. For the Basic Energy card that provides Fire Energy, see Basic R Energy (TCG)," more than handles. (If you want to be really careful, a note on Basic R Energy going back to R Energy is fine.) Furthermore, it allows for distinguishing the cards which use type icons from the ones that don't from a name search (Double Dragon and Double Colorless, compared to Powerful C). If the name of the game is consistency, then we should use abbreviations for all! [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 16:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::I agree that it is something that would be good to root in policy, I personally would suggest we write out type symbols consistantly, precisely since they are represented by single letters and can be confused with old cards. For stuff like Star and Prism star, which are represented by '''☆''' and '''♢''' respectively; symbols which dont clash with single letters, these are fine. I don't think '''Basic R Energy''' is an intuitive name for Fire energy, especially since the name we want there is '''Basic {R} Energy''', this of course being something we cant do due to MediaWiki restrictions. While PTCGL does export fire energy as '''Basic {R} Energy''', if you replace the export with '''Basic Fire Energy''' the game will recognize the import all the same. Additionally while on its own not a good resource for gaging consistancy, the official database spells out the type when it doesn't use the symbol (though whether it does this or use the type, is rather inconsistant), as can be seen [https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/ss-series/swsh2/172/ here]. This why I think its better to write out any energy symbol that may be in a card's name for the page title. ''And I would suggest incorporating this as a point of policy/Future TCG manual of style''  '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 16:48, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
+::::Who is searching for "L Energy" anyway? We've conceded that people search by English (see Letter from the Editor from March 4th), and the first visible name for this set of cards is "Basic L Energy". All the old cards that say "L Energy" are actually checking for provided Energy, not for a card name. It just happens that only Basic L Energy provides L Energy while not in play. (And Scarlet and Violet made all of these cards just say Basic L Energy instead, dodging this confusion entirely. See Electric Generator!) So I think we're more than safe, because no search would ever skip the "Basic" unless it's based on old TCG Online Exports or just looking at old card data. In which case, they're enfranchised enough that the redirect should be more than adequate. (Pokemon.com lists use "Lightning Energy", but we have redirects for those too.)
+::::The article's name should be the definitive title. I sincerely do  not think that the fact TCG Live has the option of reading "Basic Lighting Energy" should be a factor, because its option in a process that is supposed to be flexible. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 12:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::::I agree that adding basic to the page name isnt an issue, and i encourage it. Just so were clear, the "Basic ___ Energy" isnt entirely something that was started in SV, trainer guides and rule books from before use this terminology as well, abit very inconstiatntly. SV is the first time it was printed on the card in english, but Asian cards have been doing this since Gen 4. the issue is calling it "L" energy, because the shorthand energy codes are never the front-facing way TPC uses to display card names, they either show the symbol or write it out.  '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 16:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 ==Creating categories for all attacks==
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 ::::It doesn't help that the explanation does not appear to line up with the actual reason. Which as far as I can determine is, "That's how the template for card text was made". [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 22:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 :::::Yes, I agree with using the correct names for those categories like "Category:Cards with Boomburst-GX" instead of removing the GX. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 16:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::::Done. The existing categories for GX attacks now have GX in the name, like [[:Category:Cards with Boomburst-GX]]. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 19:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
+::::::Now that I think about it, we can also make categories for "Cards with a GX attack" and "Cards with a "VSTAR Power". (Which is a useful distinction, because the Z-Crystals and Seal Stones are cards.) [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 16:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 ==Articles for TCG attacks==
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 </pre>
 :::--'''[[User:Bfdifan2006|<span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#f83,#3fa);background-clip:text;color:transparent">Bfdifan2006</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Bfdifan2006|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bfdifan2006|contribs]]) 16:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
+::::I've made an attempt at modular segments based around a single "default box" [[User:Glik/Card Infobox|here]]. I've always found it very strange that Trainers and Energy have those words at the top of the infobox, above the title of the subject, so the main infobox is just a name and image. And I'm personally leaning towards the infobox only having a single static image; there's usually at least one person a year confused by the base print not being in the infobox and bringing it up on a talk page. And that's only the person who bothered to make an account, there's likely dozens more that get confused and think they're on the wrong page but never speak up. We already have all the images in the gallery anyways. <small>[[User:Glik|glik]]</small><sup>[[User talk:Glik|glak]]</sup> 21:05, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
+== Categories for attacks unreleased in English ==
+It appears that we are going to have categories for all attacks including those that have appeared in no English-language cards, right? This has been discussed a little on Discord today. For instance, this one has no official English name yet: [[:Category:Cards with Scream]].
+Personally, I would be in favor of having categories for all attacks. The categories can be renamed if/when the attack gets an official English name. Having a complete coverage of attack categories helps seeing which attacks are shared between cards (even if unreleased in English) and how many attacks exist.
+I would also suggest that we can start using some kind of template similar to <nowiki>{{TCG Unreleased}}</nowiki> to let people know when an attack has no official English name. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 15:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
+:You could just have the names be "Cards with _____ (Japanese symbols I can't type)" to mirror the way Leaf Tornado's categories work. [[:Category:Cards with Leaf Tornado (グラスミキサー)]]. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 17:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
+::In the case of Leaf Tornado, I created 2 separate categories because the "same" English attack has two different Japanese names: [[:Category:Cards with Leaf Tornado (グラスミキサー)]] and [[:Category:Cards with Leaf Tornado (リーフトルネード)]].
+::So the idea would basically be renaming "[[:Category:Cards with Scream]]" into "Category:Cards with さけび", right? I wonder if many people would prefer those kinds of categories with Japanese names. Personally, I think the English (unofficial translation) is fine since it requires no Japanese skills to type and read, and presumably all those cards with the same Japanese attack should have the same translation anyway.  --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 17:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
+::I think it should be OK to use English unofficial translations in the attack categories since we use those translations as the attack names in the card articles anyway. If we decided that the "main" way to refer to a TCG attack must never be an unofficial translation, then I suppose we would have to call the attack by their Japanese names in the articles too. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 18:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::Yeah, that was the idea. Not one of my better ones though, for those reasons. A template would work. It probably should be a parameter in the category's text template, since unlike a card page these category pages are done entirely by template. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 20:18, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
+:Unrelated but can we like, not make attack categ pages for cards that have yet to see English translations? (eg. [[:Category:Cards with Strange Hack]], [[:Category:Cards with Love Resonance]]). Since, you know, the official translation may differ compared to ours, or they may just change the names altogether (eg. "Strange Hack" may be renamed to "Strange Hacking" for the official English translation, cf. {{TCG ID|151|Mew ex|151}}). [[User:Anzasquiddles|'''<span style="color:#CF7A87;">an</span><span style="color:#2F2C2E;"><span lang="ja" style="margin: 0px;">Z</span></span><span style="color:#297E55;"><span lang="ja" style="margin: 0px;">A</span></span><span style="color:#CF7A87;">squiddles</span>''']] <small>2222(:D)SSSS</small> ([[User talk:Anzasquiddles|talk]]) 16:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
+::I agree, since the category is likely to get abandonded later and if we dont remember to do so when we clear the category were gonna end up with a bunch of things that need deleting. Just makes what in my opinion is an already messy project even more so.  '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 17:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
+:::My opinion is this: If possible, I would be in favor of creating categories for all attacks (including ones with no official names). That is, having the complete coverage of TCG attacks rather than an incomplete list.
+:::If an attack category is empty, it would be automatically placed in [[:Category:Attack categories for deletion]]. For this reason, there will be no problem of forgetting to delete empty categories. --[[User:Daniel Carrero|Daniel Carrero]] ([[User talk:Daniel Carrero|talk]]) 19:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
+== Basic _ Energy ==
+On the back of the earlier conversation at [[#Type symbol representation as letters]], I think its good to start a conversation about if we want to move the 9 Basic energy pages to reflect their current terminology by adding the word "Basic" to the page title, seeing as move templates have already been placed on a few pages. In terms of history, this terminology change occured during the Sword and Shield Series internationally, though occuring much earlier in the Asian TCG (LEGEND Series). In the Sword and Shield Series, The "Basic___Energy" terminology was first found in the Chilling Reign Player's guide (which was the first set in the series to feature a basic energy card in its set list), and subsequently followed up in the players guide of Evolving Skies, Fusion Strike and Crown Zenith. TCG Live used this terminology since its launch with the Brilliant Stars expansion. Since the Scarlet & Violet Series launch all new products refer to "Basic___Energy" and the last mention of "___Energy" occured on the back of the {{TCG|Origin Forme Palkia VSTAR League Battle Deck}} product box, incidentally one of the last new products to lauch with exclusively Sword and Shield Series cards. Official Setlists such as the one for [https://www.pokemon.com/static-assets/content-assets/cms2/pdf/trading-card-game/checklist/prize_pack_series_1_web_cardlist_en.pdf Prize Pack Series 1] and [https://asia.pokemon-card.com/sg/card-search/list/?expansionCodes=Basic%20Energy%20SWSH card databases] reaffirm that TPC uses this updated terminology even when referring to older prints of cards, without the card name being printed on it.
+Given that we are also attempting to use official terminology as a matter of principle, even if it changes over time, I therfore would suggest we move the pages in question. Doing so will also give us the additional benefit of unifing all Basic Energy types under the (TCG) suffix, which currently doesnt happen due to the need to differentiate basic and special varients of darkness and metal energy prints. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 01:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
+:I'm in support, esp to resolve the whole Darkness and Metal basic/special energies thing. [[User:Anzasquiddles|'''<span style="color:#CF7A87;">an</span><span style="color:#2F2C2E;"><span lang="ja" style="margin: 0px;">Z</span></span><span style="color:#297E55;"><span lang="ja" style="margin: 0px;">A</span></span><span style="color:#CF7A87;">squiddles</span>''']] <small>2222(:D)SSSS</small> ([[User talk:Anzasquiddles|talk]]) 04:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
+::Should we be treating them special in that way? Why wouldn't we just be treating them as regular cards with prints, where their first print and page title should be at the Base Set title? ''[[User:Maverick Nate|<sup style="color:#00008B;">'''Maverick'''</sup>]][[User talk:Maverick Nate|<sub style="color:#00008B;">'''Nate'''</sub>]]'' 01:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
+:::I would say yes, given that they are a core mechanic to the game, but even then TPC treats old prints as having this updated naming convention, even though the card name isnt printed on the card. Even if we moved if we did this it should still be '''Basic Grass Energy (Base Set 99)''' for example... but given the ubiquity of the cards and what they represent, I really dont recommend this. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 01:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
+::::Its also worth noting that a large portion of these cards dont belong to any set at all. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 01:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
+:::::TCG Live Strikes! Turns out, its exports very much care about the exact set cards come from... unless those cards happen to be the Basic Energy. You'll notice if you export a decklist, it'll append set abbreviations and numbers to everything but the basic Energy. It does so with inconsistency with Basic Energy, a whole bunch are just from an "Energy" set with a number attached. (I'm guessing these are new cards designed to give all players free access to every non special artwork of Basic Energy at a 59 count.) It's too new to include any of the cases where a card name has changed, but this does demonstrably prove the Basic Energy get special treatment in the rules. I'd post the export but that would take up space. I guess sometimes some cards do get special treatment. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
+::::::Honestly i dont know I normally would consider PTCGL a primary source but the way setless basic energies are implemented in that game does feel kinda hacky... My comment was really more directed at nate suggesting we name them after their first print... well the first fairy energy print is an unnumbered XY era print so it belongs to no set. '''[[User:4iamking|<span style="font-family:noteworthy;color:#FF1493">4iam</span><span style="font-family:papyrus;color:#8A2BE2">king</span>]]''' 22:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)