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Talk:List of unused Pokémon and character designs: Difference between revisions

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Talk:List of unused Pokémon and character designs (view source)

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''This creature resembles a seal, but doesn't seem to have much relation to any Pokémon as of yet''
''This creature resembles a seal, but doesn't seem to have much relation to any Pokémon as of yet''
: [[Image:Alpha kurusu.png]][[Image:086Seel.png|200px]]
: {{redlink|File:Alpha kurusu.png}}[[Image:086Seel.png|200px]]
: --[[User:Fabu-Vinny|FabuVinny]] 14:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
: --[[User:Fabu-Vinny|FabuVinny]] 14:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


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==Is honouguma somehow related to the [[Pikachu]] and [[Marill]], much like the three birds?==
==Is honouguma somehow related to the [[Pikachu]] and [[Marill]], much like the three birds?==
[[File:183Marill.png|150px]][[File:Alpha honouguma.png|150px]][[File:025Pikachu.png|150px]]<br>
[[File:183Marill.png|150px]]{{redlink|File:Alpha honouguma.png}}[[File:025Pikachu.png|150px]]<br>
Am I the only one to see a connection here? - [[User:Yukushi wisdom|Yukushi wisdom]] 19:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one to see a connection here? - [[User:Yukushi wisdom|Yukushi wisdom]] 19:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
:Hmm... Yeah, I see one. '''[[User:TTEchidna|<span style="color:#FF0000">TTE</span>]][[User talk:TTEchidna|<span style="color:#0000FF">chidna</span>]]''' 01:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
:Hmm... Yeah, I see one. '''[[User:TTEchidna|<span style="color:#FF0000">TTE</span>]][[User talk:TTEchidna|<span style="color:#0000FF">chidna</span>]]''' 01:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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Does anybody here see a resemblance between the unreleased Kurusu and the 5th-Gen Samurott/Daikenki?
Does anybody here see a resemblance between the unreleased Kurusu and the 5th-Gen Samurott/Daikenki?


[[File:Alpha kurusu.png|300px|Kurusu]]
{{redlink|File:Alpha kurusu.png}}


[[File:503Samurott.png|300px|Samurott]]
[[File:503Samurott.png|300px|Samurott]]
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Can we please have where we got the info added next to each of the designs. It's nice that we have all this early artwork, but it would be much better to clarify which is from books, which is from interviews, etc. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 10:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Can we please have where we got the info added next to each of the designs. It's nice that we have all this early artwork, but it would be much better to clarify which is from books, which is from interviews, etc. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 10:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
== Should we add Mega Flygon? ==
Apparently they wanted Flygon to have a mega evolution, but they couldn't come up with a good one. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 19:44, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
:Where's your source on this?--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#AB2813">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#C87365">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#26649C">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#729ABF">ire</span>]] 02:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
::Well, I heard it on serebii months ago, and then just today, I was at the [[Flygon]] page and saw the same thing in the Trivia. It's also in [[Mega Evolution]]. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 02:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
:::Oh, I see. I guess it could be added.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#AB2813">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#C87365">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#26649C">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#729ABF">ire</span>]] 03:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
::::I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure how to make it (though I <I>may</i> be able to figure that out. BTW, should it get a new section? Or use one of the current ones? [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 03:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
== Interesting Gen II finds ==
Recently I've found some possibly important info, if poorly translated on Gen II unused Pokémon seemingly from the spaceworld demo. Some are just alternate names for know Pokémon, but some like Animon and Ikari(Anchor?) seem to be unused, should we add this? Links:[https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&u=http://hakuda2.web.fc2.com/ir/poke4/botu6.html&usg=ALkJrhiNG-K5r_b7o4kFtVyQ6i4AbBNj5A 1],[https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.jp%2Fpcakatsuki%2Fpokemonlab%2Fpm.html 2] [[User:Shadowsonic5000|Shadowsonic5000]] ([[User talk:Shadowsonic5000|talk]]) 01:05, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
== resemblance ==
I would like to point out a few things that I noticed:
1. The unused final evolution of weedle looks like the gen 1 bug type party sprite.
2. Eggshell torchic reminded me of vullaby.
3. Am I the only one who thinks that the turtle might be torkoal?
--[[User:Wizardfox|Wizardfox]] ([[User talk:Wizardfox|talk]]) 02:50, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
== Obscure Honōguma image — Legitimacy? ==
In [https://twitter.com/Katsu_Nagao/status/388880608748773376 a 2013 tweet], a Twitter user called Katsu Nagao posted an alleged screenshot of Honōguma and a Metapod (but red/orange instead of green) from Next Generation World Hobby Fair on January 1998. Catstorm26 noticed this and posted it about it on Twitter/forums recently. More information ([http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?105571-Official-GSC-Programming-amp-Beta-Glitch-Thread&p=18343949#post18343949 1], [http://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=7343.msg204405#msg204405 2]). Katsu Nagao claimed it to be real and it seems rather convincing, but is it convincing enough to add to the page? --[[User:Chickasaurus|Chickasaurus]] ([[User talk:Chickasaurus|talk]]) 21:53, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
== Girafarig and Happa sprites ==
https://tcrf.net/images/5/5e/PkmnGS-EarlyBattle2.jpg
This image was taken from [https://youtu.be/-LPNOrsseVk?t=1m46s a 1998 video featuring footage of the Spaceworld 1997 demo of Gold and Silver]. Girafarig's original design is shown in this screenshot, as is Happa's back sprite. Unlike the [https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/b/b9/Alpha_happa.png sketch shown in the article], it looks like Chikorita's design was actually finalized by this point in development; the only difference being that its legs are fully visible in its back sprite in the demo, whereas they are cropped out in the final game. --[[User:CartmanKusanagi|CartmanKusanagi]] ([[User talk:CartmanKusanagi|talk]]) 06:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
:The sketch is just a fanart drawn from memory, so it seems only natural that it differs from the real thing. To me, this in-game screencap confirms that Happa was already a fully-realized "Chikorita" at that point, design-wise at least. Therefore, it should be treated as a beta name, rather than an "unreleased design", in my opinion. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] ([[User talk:Maxim|talk]]) 11:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
::I've added screenshots for Beta Girafarig and Hoppip, both from the same footage at SpaceWorld 1997. I will remove the section on this page for 'Happa' as clearly Chikorita was a finalised design by this point. It strikes me that both the sketches for Beta Marill and Beta Qwilfish are highly likely to be misremembered fan interpretations, and that both of these designs could well have been finalised by 1997. However the longevity of these sketches probably earns them the right to remain, at least until screenshots surface proving otherwise. ''[[User:Sui|<sup style="color:#2685f1;">'''Sui'''</sup>]][[User talk:Sui|<sub style="color:#aba59d;">'''Scorpio'''</sub>]]'' 12:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::Considering that Chikorita/Happa's early artwork still displays demonstrable differences from its final appearance (yellow eyes and neck buds, an indistinct blob-like body with multiple small 'legs'), it's been moved to the 'Minor alterations' section in subsequent revisions. The artwork should also be kept as long as the Kurusu/Honoguma/Marill/Qwilfish artwork is kept, as they all clearly came from the same source. [[User:Jennyjams|Jennyjams]] ([[User talk:Jennyjams|talk]]) 16:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
::::Disregard the above, I misunderstood something. The sketches are apparently fan recreations of Pokemon seen in the demo, which means that the Chikorita sketch was likely a recreation/misremembering of the final sprite. [[User:Jennyjams|Jennyjams]] ([[User talk:Jennyjams|talk]]) 16:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
::::: I don't know why it's now in Altered Designs, given the design in that screenshot looks almost identical to this one [[Image:Spr b 2g 152.png]]. Maybe this page needs an 'Altered Names' section specifically? ''[[User:Sui|<sup style="color:#2685f1;">'''Sui'''</sup>]][[User talk:Sui|<sub style="color:#aba59d;">'''Scorpio'''</sub>]]'' 07:50, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
::::::Yes, I agree but I don't think there should be a section called "Altered Names". For now, I've redirected Happa to [[Pokémon Gold and Silver beta]] because I think it should be mentioned there as a pre-release name. I haven't actually added it to the page because I'm no expert on this and there appears to be more pre-release names that I'm not aware of (for example, see Nidoking's pre-release name, Maiko, under the "Satoshi Tajiri manga designs" discussion below). --[[User:Wowy|<span style="color:#AAAAFF">'''Wowy'''</span>]][[User talk:Wowy|<sub style="color:#B69E00;">'''(토크)'''</sub>]] 08:44, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
== Satoshi Tajiri manga designs ==
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdWog9QVMAAWe2e.jpg --'''[[User:Pokelova|<span style="color:#26649C">Poke</span>]][[User talk:Pokelova|<span style="color:#AB2813">lova</span>]]''' 03:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
: It looks like there are even more here, but the Japanese text is really small so it's hard to read.
https://twitter.com/kyle_toom/status/997019544299294720 --[[User:Chickasaurus|Chickasaurus]] ([[User talk:Chickasaurus|talk]]) 15:34, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Here's what the list of names says:
{|
| ２１　ビリリダマ (Voltorb)
|-
| ２２　ベロリンガ (Lickitung)
|-
| ２３　コイル　(Magnemite)
|-
| ２４　カクタス (Cactus)*
|-
| ２５　ユンゲラー (Kadabra)
|-
| ２６　スリーパー (Hypno)
|-
| ２７　マイコー・オス (Maiko♂ (This is Nidoking's beta name [https://tcrf.net/File:PokemonRB-GCCXProtoScreens.png]))
|-
| ２８　ブー (Boo)*
|-
| ２９　バルンダ（Ａ）(Blunder (A))*
|-
| ３０　ストライク(Scyther)
|-
| &nbsp;
|-
| ３１　ディグダ (Diglett)
|}[[User:Mefredbob|Mefredbob]] ([[User talk:Mefredbob|talk]]) 22:11, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Worth noting that this page also notes the beta name of Blastoise vs. Staryu (as Karabajio vs. Mimii) that is listed in this image.
Still wonder exactly what Gyaoon is, Japanese commenters seem equally confused. However, Farfetch'd seems to be clearly キクパーン (kikupaan) to them (although I confess I can't read the first kana to save my life, nor pull literally any meaning out of that either). Apologies if I've messed up the formatting.
[[User:Breh|Breh]] ([[User talk:Breh|talk]]) 05:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
==Alleged unused Pokémon we only know the name of==
The Japanese Pokémon Wiki has had these listed for quite a long time (source: https://wiki.ポケモン.com/wiki/没ポケモンの一覧 relevant section: "名前のみで未発表になったポケモン"), and I think (though I'm not exactly sure), they may have been talked about in old accounts of the Space World 1997 demo, but given the Mandella effect it may be risky to add them, especially Netamon which is almost a typo of Metamon (Ditto).
These included: Aqua, Eleking, Netamon and allegedly shown in a video during the demo explaining new features of the Pokédex: Aquaria, Animon, Ikari.
[https://tcrf.net/Prerelease:Pok%C3%A9mon_Gold_and_Silver#Pok%C3%A9mon The Cutting Room Floor article]
Also on the subject of unused Pokémon with no images from Generation I, [https://twitter.com/ikiro_pkmn/status/996923420230148096 this tweet] (second image) shows the handwritten names of many Pokémon in the poll, but sometimes we have no way of linking them with an existing Pokémon (or known unused Pokémon) or the handwriting may be hard to read. --[[User:Chickasaurus|Chickasaurus]] ([[User talk:Chickasaurus|talk]]) 21:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
== Suggestions ==
-Add the other unused Pokemon from the Satoshi TaJiri manga and use higher quality images for the ones already on the page. This includes: A Pokemon that looks like a bird from Kirby, a Pokemon that looks like a Shy Guy from Mario, a Kanto Pokemon that appears to be similar to Tyranitar, and a Pokemon that is a white ball.
-There is also an early version of Combee in that manga.
-There is a higher quality image of the unused Kanto elliphant Pokemon.
-There is a higher quality image of the unused Pokemon that looks similar to Seel.
-Remove the image of Tirtouga, there is no reason to think why that Pokemon has anything to do with the unused Pokemon it is being compared to.
-Take the unused Pokemon that are referred to as "early versions of Gengar & Nidorino" out of the the altered Pokemon section and put them in the unreleased Pokemon section, there is no reason to assume they are related to Gengar & Nidorino.
-Take out the word "designs", these are unused Pokemon, not unused "Pokemon designs".
--[[User:Horsecooker|Horsecooker]] ([[User talk:Horsecooker|talk]]) 20:31, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
-Drednaw from the upcoming Gen VII bears a lot more resemblance to the unused pokemon than Tirtouga.
== Space World demo leak ==
https://nintendosoup.com/pokemon-golds-space-world-1997-demo-has-been-leaked/ --'''[[User:Pokelova|<span style="color:#26649C">Poke</span>]][[User talk:Pokelova|<span style="color:#AB2813">lova</span>]]''' 11:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
== Pokémon Gold Design Links ==
So I found out some used designs on plans in said game through this link http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/05/31/pokemon-gold-demo-rom-leak-new-evolutions/ . Can we add them in on the page with approval of course?--[[User:Jacob9594|Jacob Kogan]] ([[User talk:Jacob9594|talk]]) 15:45, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
:We aren't sure if the leak is legitimate. It could be a hoax to hype up the nostalgia train from the recent pre-RG reveals.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 05:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
::Are you serious?  Do you really think someone spent the time and effort to build a ROM that isn't based off of the Gold ROM, created 100 new Pokemon, added new items and removed features like breeding, changed base stats, and then made the game basically unplayable without the debug menu so they could "hype up the nostalgia train"?  Are you an idiot?--[[User:Nintenfreak|Nintenfreak]] ([[User talk:Nintenfreak|talk]]) 06:08, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
:::In my opinion, it's too much of a coincidence that it comes a month (weeks?) after the RG stuff. And there are such things as hoaxers putting in the utmost effort to make something appear legitimate.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 06:11, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
:::Also, it's a demo/prototype, making it unplayable would help make it seem legitimate.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 06:12, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
::::So, it really shouldn't need saying, but it really deserves it right now: Let's ''not'' get into slinging insults, 'kay?
::::The things you mention are persuasive, Nintenfreak, but at least for a while, we'd like to give it a bit of time to see how things look when people have had more than just a few dozen hours to look at it. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 06:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
== Honoguma and Kurusu ==
The images used for Honoguma and Kurusu are not official art- they are fan recreations ([http://www.glitterberri.com/pokemon-gold-silver/spaceworld-97-demo/]). Should they be removed? --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 18:57, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
:The images for early Marill, Girafarig, and Ledyba are fan created as well. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 19:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
::As far as Glitterberri is concerned, seems all the images were recreated shortly after the SpaceWorld 1997 event. Given they have font all over them (as does the early Silver fan created art), it seems more than likely they were recreated to display in a gaming magazine at the time. ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 03:11, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
:::Ah, that makes more sense. Thank you. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 23:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
::::The fan art was made for someone's personal website, just fyi. https://twitter.com/dmrn28/status/1006084888712208384 [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 11:56, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
== Leaked Pokémon from Spaceworld Demo of Pokémon Gold/Silver. ==
So just recently, the 1997 Spaceworld demo for Pokémon Gold & Silver has just resurfaced on the Internet, and it turns out that there was a BUNCH of Pokémon that have not been used or have been heavily altered in the final release. Considering that there is about a hundred of these unused/altered Pokémon, how should we even list them on here? [[User:SquirtleLover1999|SquirtleLover1999]] ([[User talk:SquirtleLover1999|talk]]) 07:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
:We are aware and is being discussed above.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 08:09, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
::I mean, unless it is proven to not be fake it shouldn't be added, right? [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 19:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
:::Exactly.
:::Adding to the discussion, though. This link was posted in the Bulbapedia discord: [https://iimarckus.org/spaceworld/]
:::Obviously it's not a source that would confirm something, but the fact that there was unused data in Gold and Silver that matches the Spaceworld leaked demo ''that was not noticed until after the demo leaked'' is certainly interesting. It's not my call, though, we need to wait for staff to reach a decision regarding the demo until anything is treated as fact. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 23:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
::::I, personally, believe this is fake. There are some discrepancies in the demo contents with some info (such as some of Kouichi Hiwasa's account to Glitterberri) as well as some questionable sprites in it. The staff is probably divided too, but I wonder if it is really possible to reach a veredict without an official pronouncement by GF or Nintendo. [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 00:54, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::Reading through Hiwasa's account, it mostly seems to match up, but I digress; my opinion isn't really important for Bulbapedia's purposes. You do bring up an interesting point with "I wonder if it is really possible to reach a verdict without an official pronouncement by GF or Nintendo". I highly, highly doubt that anyone from GF will ever even acknowledge the fact that this supposed demo version is out there, let alone confirm or refute its authenticity. The closest thing to an acknowledgement from a GF employee I know of is [https://twitter.com/JamesTurner_42/status/1002193807503376384 James Turner saying that it was the first he had heard of the demo]. Staff knows the parameters for confirming something without a reasonable doubt though, and I have confidence that they know how to treat this demo. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 01:14, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
::::::Didn't see the discussion here, and I didn't know it was a... divisive topic to put it simply. And judging by what they are saying here, it's almost impossible to prove unless someone that played the demo 21 years ago says anything or an ex-GF member confirms it. Guess I shouldn't have said anything at the GS beta page. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 02:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::::I don't thinking trusting the memory from someone who played it 21 years ago is somewhat reliable. The only way to nail it down would be GF or Nintendo confirming it. [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 03:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::::: What about the memory of multiple people who played it 21 years ago? [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 20:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
== The Game Review Magazine ==
As a question, I was wondering why the details of the Game Review Magazine are current on the article.  While I can understand Tyranitar due to being recycled for the games, [http://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/features/sugimori_kens_works.html the designs were just created on the fly for a topic in the magazine].  Would it be ok to remove everything except for Tyranitar when the article is unlocked?  --[[User:Super goku|Super goku]] ([[User talk:Super goku|talk]]) 18:13, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
:Eh, even if they were just made as a what if scenario, they were still drawn. So I think it should stay.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 04:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
== Another discussion about Beta Pokemon Gold ==
I think it's already been mentioned that the leak might have been a hoax. Now that we've "given it a bit of time" and it's been more than "a few dozen hours", can someone add the new leaks to the page? [[User:Sumwun|sumwun]] ([[User talk:Sumwun|talk]]) 20:02, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
:I think that when information is finished on userspace pages, it would be able to be moved to the mainspace. However, different users have different ideas on how this would look— [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld|mine]] and [[User:Abcboy/Pokémon Gold and Silver demo/Pokémon|Abcboy's]] are pretty different, for example.
:That being said, though, I think that if we were able to add this kind of stuff to the mainspace, even if it's not fully complete yet, it would be completed quicker, and there would be more discussion on how to format it and such. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 21:11, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
::The main focus should be fleshing out the userpages first. Do '''NOT''' add the leak Pokémon on this article. The staff will discuss how to go about putting the leak info on the mainspace.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:34, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
:::I'm pretty sure that the supposed leak was faked. As such, we probably shouldn't mainspace the information within.[[User:Jdrawer|Jdrawer]] ([[User talk:Jdrawer|talk]]) 03:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::As far as I've heard there hasn't been any recent developments about it. What makes you think that? I'm not trying to argue, just trying to hear your thoughts. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 17:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
This analysis seems to solidify the existence of two beta GSC pokemon, particularly Kotora and Raitora.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq971cWWzq8&t=82s
--[[User:Flashlight237|Flashlight237]] ([[User talk:Flashlight237|talk]]) 18:03, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
:Any update on the staff discussion? Work on the pages seems to be rather disorganized at the moment- as well as pretty dead. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 21:59, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
::New comments go at the bottom of the discussion. Have patience, there are other things taking priority at the moment. Users should be focusing on filling out the userpages.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 02:56, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
== Kabiin, Buhi and Papyo are not from Capumon ==
These three monsters come from a different document and can't be positively dated. Anyways the word "Pokémon" appears on their storyboards along with GameFreak's final logo (which first appeared in Pulseman) at least confirming that they weren't featured in the 1990 pitch. I propose to separate them from the Capumon group.[[User:Qbertpo|Qbertpo]] ([[User talk:Qbertpo|talk]]) 10:51, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
== Add the Four "MissingNo." That were Identified ==
I suggest adding the four MissingNo. that have been identified recently. I know that we must not acknowledge the spaceworld leak. [https://helixchamber.com/2018/08/06/game-center-cx-and-you/ Source.] {{unsigned|Kingdedede}}
== The Unused Female Character ==
The unused female character has now appeared in an actual Pokémon game as Green. I propose we create a new page for this character, as it seems to be strongly indicated that she is not the same character as Leaf (though Leaf is partially based on the character, they are not the same). --[[User:LavaringX|LavaringX]] ([[User talk:LavaringX|talk]]) 05:58, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
== NHK Broadcast revealed scrapped Pokemon "Omega" and early Gyarados design. ==
Helix Chamber has confirmed it to be real as well;
https://twitter.com/benisboy/status/1075154504792731648 {{unsigned|Pichu Madman26}}
:Interesting. I'd say it's worth adding. That Gyarados looks really cool, by the way. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 18:14, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
== Pokemon GS Beta and Pokemon Green Prototype Data ==
Okay, so the issue has been up for months now of whether the Pokemon GS Spaceworld demo is real. Various pieces of evidence have been brought up, from leftover assets to discoveries of 4 MissingNo, not only proving the existence of unseen beta Pokemon, but two of them matching suspiciously with Kotora and Raitora [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq971cWWzq8&t=15s]. Many things showed favor of this thing being legit, and nothing giving much against it, that is until, the Pokemon Green leaked assets. Due to being poorly presented, many took it as fake, and questioned the overall authenticity of Helix Chamber. But as of today, scans of a Famitsu magazine have been made public. Various concept arts and better quality images of sprites have been revealed. But what really drew my attention was this tweet [https://twitter.com/helixchamber/status/1126145212785594375]. If the proto assets were fake, how would the faker get these right? They had no way of knowing, unless it was made by someone at Pokemon, although that would only make it seem more authentic. This is definite evidence of the assets being real, poorly revealed, but real. Knowing this, even more authenticity is added to the Pokemon GS demo being real. This is because various baby Pokemon and the Kotora and Raitora line are found in the assets and are seen in the Spaceworld demo. I really think a decision needs to be made, because more and more evidence is piling up to the Spaceworld Demo and now the Proto-Green Assets, and more and more questions will rise if the staff at Bulbapedia don't put their foot down on what these are. I understand being wary to add info about the Proto-Green Assets, but Spaceworld has had months of waiting, just to be proven beyond reasonable doubt as real. At this point these should be declared on Bulbapedia as real, or as fake, and have that as Bulbapedia's final decision on the matter. [[User:LeapingRiolu|LeapingRiolu]] ([[User talk:LeapingRiolu|talk]]) 04:04, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:Helix Chamber wasn’t the one who released the Spaceworld rom, so the RG incident shouldn’t have affected its already proven without a doubt veracity. Unfortunately, for some people, it has. But yes, I agree. Both prototypes are 100% real. Frankly Spaceworld should have been added several months ago. I feel like Spaceworld also has enough information to warrant much more than just a few additions on this page, and should be expanded to its own pages. Let’s hope we get a full rom of an RG prototype someday, but for now it should go on this page and/or the Pokémon Red and Green beta page. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 11:42, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
::I don't think a small snippet from Famitsu, and one where we already know most of the information, proves that the RG leak is "100% real". Unless Famitsu or any other official/credible source releases more RG beta content, the RG leak could very well be 100% fake. As for spaceworld, still no official/credible source for that, so I'm still doubtful on that. Yes, it's highly unlikely we'll get official sources for it, and that's just too bad. But for things like beta content, we can really only trust the official sources and not some "leak" from some "anonymous" source.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 13:53, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:::A lot of the sprites from the Famitsu magazine and the RG asset leak are identical. Some of these sprites were never seen before. Unless whoever sent Helix Chamber has a time machine, this is impossible. Spaceworld has already been confirmed on multiple fronts to be real by experts, and was also confirmed by the RG assets. To be blunt, at this point, claiming either is fake is just denial. It’s hurting the integrity of the wiki to ignore such important information, quite honestly. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 18:50, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:::Oh, and in case more than trainer sprites were needed, which should prove it without a doubt, two names from the RG assets that AFAIK have not appeared before, Ichirou and Yuuichi, appeared in the Famitsu scan. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:07, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
::::There's a reason these things are anonymous. We have no idea how anyone would have gotten their hands on these pieces of Pokemon history. Pokemon has confirmed that they look back at old concepts and such for inspiration, so the only way I see it getting out is blatant theft. And if the person revealing the Beta and Assets did give their name, they'd more than likely lose their job and suffer legal consequences. [[User:LeapingRiolu|LeapingRiolu]] ([[User talk:LeapingRiolu|talk]]) 21:15, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:::::Regardless of anonymity, both these leaks are real. And yes, I suppose that "it's highly unlikely we'll get official sources for it," but at this point, we shouldn't need Gamefreak to magically come down from the sky and spoonfeed us the truth. Anyone can tell from looking at these leaks, especially the RG assets, that they're real, without any room for doubt. Unless, again, Helix Chamber has a time travel machine. This is more than just a "small snippet"; this is cold, hard evidence that proves the veracity of both. Let's not let our personal opinions hurt Bulbapedia. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 18:33, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
::::::I have to agree, there's no doubt the leaks are legit by this point. Waiting for confirmation from official sources or Famitsu is asinine, game companies rarely if ever confirm the veracity on such leaks. It seems to me that this place is just inexperienced at dealing with beta leaks. The proof brought up already proves they're not fake; even The Cutting Room Floor, which ''does'' have experience at the subject of leaks, prototypes and scrapped content, has accepted them as legit. Stop being so headstrong in the face of proof. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 06:50, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
== Admins -- is Gen 5 betamon info all rumors? ==
Hey admins, how are ya. I made this Bulbapedia account just to write this post.
I've got a YouTube channel that primarily focuses on beta Pokemon content, with an emphasis on having a source for everything. I'm working on Gen 5 now, and I was looking at Bulbapedia's unused Pokemon page. It seems that information regarding the beta of the Hydreigon family, Sawk, Throh, Tornadus, Thundurus, and Stunfisk is all credited to a Nintendo Dream interview with Ken Sugimori. But I've spent about 12 hours over the past couple days searching for that interview, or even a volume number that interview is meant to be contained in. I even googled around in Japanese. Couldn't find a thing. I asked my 22,000 subscribers for help, including some who are Japanese. No one could find anything. It seems Bulbapedia and many other sites have just been citing "a Nintendo Dream interview," and no one has been linking or citing a specific volume.
I'm thinking maybe it's meant to be volume 205, the May 2011 issue. But in that interview Sugimori only says that Hydreigon is based on the Yamata no Ochiri. I'm thinking all these quotes attributed to that Sugimori interview -- about dragon tanks, horned eyebrowless Oni, red Tornadus, and anglerfish Stunfisk -- probably don't exist, and that all Bulbapedia's Gen 5 betamon info is bunk -- all except Sawsbuck and Excadrill. I'd really like to be wrong though.
I tried combing through the page's history tab, but couldn't find where this information was added. I'm new to looking over the back-end of wikis though, so my apologies if I'm just overlooking something obvious. Please let me know, I'd really appreciate it.
Cheers admins,
Dr Lava {{unsigned|Dr Lava}}
:Ultra-ironic if true. -{{unsigned|ArchdevilAntidote}}
::-[http://blog.livedoor.jp/shellspider/archives/696157.html#more]
::-[http://rpgland.com/2010/11/30/pokemon-black-and-white-scans-interview-in-nintendo-dream/]
::-[https://web.archive.org/web/20111119031953/http://pokemonblackandwhite.net/?p=4142]
::-[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=List_of_unused_Pok%C3%A9mon_and_character_designs&diff=1660923&oldid=1653669]
::-[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Talk:Hydreigon_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#Official_source._Hydreigon_is_based_on_a_Japanese_dragon.28YAMATA_NO_OROCHI.29.] (User Sawamular cites Nintendo Dream volume 205 as his source, he posted the same message on pokemon talk pages relevant to the Gen 5 beta)
::-[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Hydreigon_(Pok%C3%A9mon)&diff=prev&oldid=1448591]
::-[https://forums.serebii.net/threads/official-pokemon-discussion-thread.467053/page-459#post-12163722]
::--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 05:08, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
{{indent}}Thanks ForceFire for the links, much appreciated. Of the 7 links you gave me as sources for the Gen 5 Pokemon's altered designs, one of them was in Japanese, one referred to the Nintendo Dream issue as being the February 2011 instead of May, #19 was just a user citing the May issue for the Yamata no Orochi quote but nothing else -- and well, I found the whole collection to be useful but still a little confusing and unclear. The most useful one was a non-ideal translation on page 459 of a Serebii forums thread, which is basically ungooglable. That said, I don't mean to come off as jerky here -- I know you're working with what you've got and I'm impressed you even had this much, and I appreciate your taking the time to provide me these links.
I think this particular Sugimori interview is probably the most important interview that deals with Gen 5 altered Pokemon designs, so I had the interview's Japanese transcript properly translated into English, and a Japanese friend was able to provide me with a picture of volume 205's page that has the information about Hydreigon, Sawk, Throh, and the Forces of Nature trio. '''I've compiled the original Japanese transcript, the English translation, pictures, and provided context for the interview, and added it all to my website in an easy-to-read article.''' I also included a special thanks section that thanks you ForceFire for providing valuable links, as well as to Shellspider, the original transcriber, and a link to the archive of his old blog. Several other folks who helped put it all together are thanked as well at the end of the interview's translation. Here's the link: http://lavacutcontent.com/ken-sugimori-nintendo-dream/
I hope that this link can serve as a more convenient, accessible, and accurate source for these "altered design" entries on the "unused Pokemon" page. Like I said, '''I think this particular Sugimori interview is really important, and information about it is incredibly difficult to find, even with Google. And I think it needs to be preserved and easy to access, particularly for folks who don't speak Japanese.''' Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to help me find this stuff ForceFire. Sorry if I formatted this post wrong -- I couldn't figure out how to make it a reply to your previous comment, so I just put it here. Cheers. -Dr Lava [[User:Dr Lava|Dr Lava]] ([[User talk:Dr Lava|talk]]) 11:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
:The other staff members also contributed in finding those links, I just relayed the information. A majority of those links all cite the same one source: Nintendo Dream. I've added the information into the altered Pokemon section, linking your site as a reference. I'll eventually get to adding the information to the individual articles.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 08:10, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
== Another Nintendo Dream interview translation with Sugimori ==
I had another Ken Sugimori interview translated, this one from Nintendo Dream volume 204. Here's the link: http://lavacutcontent.com/ken-sugimori-nintendo-dream-2/
And here are the highlights as it relates to this "unused Pokemon" page:
"Petilil and Lilligant were originally meant as a three-stage evolutionary line."
"Stunfisk was born out of the designer’s desire to create the flattest Pokémon. At first he was modeled after a goosefish, was blue in color, and was dual-type Water and Electric, but during the balancing phase of development, his type was changed and he ended up resembling a flounder." This page currently states he was an angler fish. A goosefish is technically a type of angler fish, but I think most folks think of an angler fish as round, but a goosefish as flat. Idk, maybe that's just me.
"Originally Dwebble and Crustle’s shells were supposed to be made from kiln-fired pottery, which would have made them ‘Furnace Pokémon.’ But we ended up revising the shells and giving them sharper angles, because we thought the original designs looked slow and awkward."
About the Litwick family: "The original concept was to create a Pokémon family that starts as a flame, then a candle, and finally a lamp. But the idea that a flame evolved into a candle wasn’t really working, so we ended up switching the candle’s position to make it the family’s first form."
I talked to SnorlaxMonster on Twitter -- he told me there were a few of you guys in an admin group chat that scrounged up those links you sent me before. Very much appreciated. Cheers ForceFire. [[User:Dr Lava|Dr Lava]] ([[User talk:Dr Lava|talk]]) 19:19, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
[June 19, 2019 edit]
I had the interview from Nintendo Dream volume 201 translated as well, here's the link: http://lavacutcontent.com/ken-sugimori-nintendo-dream-3/
The main highlight, at least as far as beta Pokemon, is the section about Karrablast and a scrapped snail Pokemon once meant as Karrablast and Escavalier's rival, or more likely a 2 stage family of snails.
== Unpictured ==
The sheep that we thought could be Flaaffy or Mareep... could also be Wooloo (and if it evolves, maybe whatever it evolves to). --[[User:OPStellar|OPStellar]] ([[User talk:OPStellar|talk]]) 20:29, 3 August 2019 (UTC)OPStellar
== Hoppip's beta name ==
Please add that {{p|Hoppip}}'s beta name was {{tt|ハネコ|Haneko}} '''Haneco'''. Thank you. --[[User:TheICTLiker4|<span style="color:#2b2">'''TheICT'''</span>]][[User talk:TheICTLiker4|<span style="color:#22b">'''Liker'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/TheICTLiker4|<span style="color:#b62">'''4'''</span>]] 07:19, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
== Gengar & "Nidorino", Omega and Gyaoonh ==
Change Nidorino to unknown creature. Nidorino was created way after 1990. Nidoran ♂️, Nidoran ♀️, Nidoking, and Nidoqueen were created in 1990. The creature appears to shair traits with Gyaoon as well. Only 30 pokémon were created in 1990, as seen in Capumon documents which also included Omega, which was a robotic tyrannosauroid based on Mecha Godzilla. Omega was first seen in Satoshi Tagiri manga, where most of it's sprite and name was covered up. It was finally seen in December 2018 when the second Capumon sprite page was revealed in an NHK broadcast. It originally used Blastoise's cry, which was seen when in the Gameinformer video interview with James Turner, Gyaoon's cry was also revealed to have been Ivysaur's  It may have been a counterpart to Gyaoon as Gyaoon's name is an onomatopoeia for Godzilla's roar. Gyaoon was later moved to slot 31 based on leaked prototype data for Red & Green. The origin of the files is from a hacker that hacked nintendo's servers. This is also where the Spaceworld 1997 G&S Prototype and the Gen 4 beta sprites originated from.
[[File:OmegaNHK.png]]
[[File:Gyaon2.png]]
[[User:Kingdedede|Kingdedede]] ([[User talk:Kingdedede|talk]]) 01:52, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Well, it seems more clear that everything that was leaked is real. Where the editors at? --[[User:Flashlight237|Flashlight237]] ([[User talk:Flashlight237|talk]]) 05:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
== Prisman ==
The [[Media:June 1997 CoroCoro p32-35.jpg|June 1997 issue of CoroCoro Comics]] included a "Pokémon 2 Idea Contest". As an example of the kind of designs entrants might like to submit, CoroCoro included a design for a hypothetical Pokémon called "Prisman". [https://hirespokemon.tumblr.com/post/176957044281/probably-by-junichi-nihei-%E3%83%8B%E7%93%B6%E6%B7%B3%E4%B8%80-published-in Hi Res Pokémon] has a translation of its details. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 05:56, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
== Bandana ==
You don't spell 'bandana' as 'bandanna'. Please fix. Could [[Template:Anchor|anchors]] be added as well please?--[[User:Tmwps|Tmwps]] ([[User talk:Tmwps|talk]]) 16:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
:Either spelling is acceptable. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#00A1E9">cela</span><span style="color:#BF004F">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 16:18, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
== Page update ==
I think this page is in need of an update. We've started putting up [[Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld '97 demo|some info on the Spaceworld '97 demo]], and (currently at least) the policy there is not to draw any comparisons between those beta Pokemon and the final ones. I'd love to include a mention of or at least a link to that page on this one, but that policy kind of throws a wrench into how this page works. We'd need to remove a couple of those here.
Additionally, I think this page could use some just general cleaning. The TrainerPoké template honestly doesn't look great here. My current vision is to change this from a "list" article to a general, more prosey article on unreleased designs, sorted chronologically/by game rather than its resemblance to current Pokemon.
It might also be a good time to bring up some of the other leaked assets, too, since that was over a year ago now. I'm less concerned about Spaceworld '99 here-- that can get its own page-- and more about [https://tcrf.net/Prerelease:Pok%C3%A9mon_Gold_and_Silver/Sprites some of the prerelease sprites].--[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#44BAE5">cela</span><span style="color:#DA7D99">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 00:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
== Did you know gaming ==
Did you know gaming just did a video on this topic with the original translator of pokemon and has several you seem to be missing on this page. Actually on that note, the leaked beta seems to have a few (by a few i mean a decent amount) also not listed here. --[[User:J spencer93|J spencer93]] ([[User talk:J spencer93|talk]]) 15:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
:See [[Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld '97 demo]] --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#44BAE5">cela</span><span style="color:#DA7D99">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 18:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
== Many Scrapped Gen I and II Pokémon ==
How come a lot of scrapped Generation I and II Pokémon like Kotora and Raitora (resembling cute electric tigers) and Twinz (supposedly a pre-evolved form of Girafarig, resembling a two-headed ghost) aren't mentioned here? {{unsigned|Jjliang}}
:This page probably needs an update to mention them, but they're at [[Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld '97 demo]]. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#44BAE5">cela</span><span style="color:#DA7D99">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 17:36, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
== Add this ==
[[File:RacieB-konyaart.jpg|This is a scrapped Meowth pre-evovlution]]
Its under the working name of Konya
[[User:TreeckoLiker|TreeckoLiker]] ([[User talk:TreeckoLiker|talk]]) 16:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
== Gengar source ==
Do we have a source linking the monster on the cover of the Capsule Monsters book to Gengar, or is that just reasonable speculation? [[User:Jdrawer|Jdrawer]] ([[User talk:Jdrawer|talk]]) 20:03, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
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