187
edits
Talk:Umbreon (Pokémon): Difference between revisions
→Poison: new section
(→Inconclusive: new section) |
(→Poison: new section) Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit |
||
| (33 intermediate revisions by 11 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
==Evolve Eevee?== | ==Evolve Eevee?== | ||
| Line 94: | Line 88: | ||
About the Anime's lack of Umbreon using Dark Type Moves, Gary's Umbreon used Hidden Power, meaning that information can't be confirmed.--[[User:Benayla|Benayla]] ([[User talk:Benayla|talk]]) 08:59, 15 September 2016 (UTC) | About the Anime's lack of Umbreon using Dark Type Moves, Gary's Umbreon used Hidden Power, meaning that information can't be confirmed.--[[User:Benayla|Benayla]] ([[User talk:Benayla|talk]]) 08:59, 15 September 2016 (UTC) | ||
:{{m|Hidden Power}} inflicts damage using a type and power determined by the user's IVs. The power varies between 31 and 70 in Generation II, and varies between 30 and 70 in Generations III to V. | |||
:As far as anime goes, anime does not necessarily equal game in terms of how things are applied. Therefore, we don't see it as anything beyond a Normal-type move. As such, the statement of not using Dark-type moves applies. [[User:CycloneGU|CycloneGU]] ([[User talk:CycloneGU|talk]]) 14:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC) | |||
== PokèPark 2 == | |||
Should the side-game locations box include the location in PokèPark 2? It has the PokèPark 1 location but not the second game. And in the side-game data section it shows both PokèPark game entries. {{unsigned|AngelicEspeon}} | |||
== Umbreon's Rings == | |||
Would it be notable, given the pokedex references to Umbreon being poisonous, that Umbreon's rings may be based on a blue-ringed octopus? This could also relate to the color choice for its shiny form. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 13:42, 5 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:Sounds kinda like a strech imo. | |||
:Comparing a mammal to a mollusk just because of some ring-like patterns and an obscure dex entry, ya know? It ain't even poison-type in the end. | |||
:And if it was their inspiration for some reason, why not reference it in the main design instead of the shiny one? | |||
: [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 01:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:: Well... was going to avoid mentioning the demo leak, but it ''is'' Poison-type in the demo. Provided that that's real (and there's a lot of evidence in its favor) then that would lend credence to Umbreon's design originally drawing inspiration from a notoriously venomous animal. As for why it would reference it in the shiny form instead of the main one- you could ask Wooper the same question. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 02:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::It's not an octopus. Just having blue rings is such a weak connection. Shiny colorations don't get their origins explained, unless it's very clearly obvious (this isn't, since it's just blue rings), since the colors may be random.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 04:26, 8 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::I just figured, that it ''might'' connect to the shiny, but the point was more venomous creature with glowing rings = possible connection to poisonous eeveelution with glowing rings. But if you feel strongly against it, I will concede and hold my opinion. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 06:21, 8 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::::I noticed on Espeon's page that the trivia states that the red gem resembles a lunar eclipse, but neither of the pages state that Umbreon's rings resemble solar eclipses. I think it might reference that. [[User:AnonymousFog|AnonymousFog]] ([[User talk:AnonymousFog|talk]]) 00:53, 18 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Umbreon's Origin == | |||
Well, someone removed it without explaining why, so to avoid edit wars I guess I'm gonna make a topic about it first. | |||
Umbreon's origin has always been a mystery. I personally think Umbreon may have influences from the {{wp|Set animal}}. This is a totemic animal used to represent the god Set in Egypt, usually as a black and slender canid. | |||
My argument to such is that it could've drawn inspiration from such since it matches the supposed Egyptian thematic in its design (the golden rings), it is an unknown creature that partially fits the description, also explains the Dark type (Evil type in Japan) since it is associated with chaotic and negative elements. | |||
While it does not match perfectly a few aspects such as the slight curved snout, I believe this could be a valid origin to it since the moon rabbit origin doesn't fill many aspects of it other than the large ears and the moon theme. But since they're don't exclude each other I see no reason to rule this out. | |||
Any thoughts on this? | |||
[[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 02:02, 8 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:Since nobody discussed nor counterargumented it I re-added it to the origins. Also, removed some absurd things in it: | |||
:Umbreon as a "melanistic serval". Unlike mythological creatures who open space for imagination, comparing it to a real animal must be more precise. Servals are slim and have are quite long (length wise), have short ears and a cat-like tail. But then, Umbreon has a Hare-like ears and a fox-like tail and really short. The patterns are nothing similar as well. | |||
:"Moon Rabbit depicted to be white". Yes, but it is also commonly depicted as a black silhouette on the moon (which fits Umbreons design). It is also called "Jade Rabbit" and "Gold Rabbit" by poets. So it could basically have multiple different interpretations. This statement is pointless. | |||
:Bastet trivia was not relevant. | |||
:[[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 03:46, 11 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
::No response '''does not''' mean you can just add it back, have patience. The set animal is too vague of a creature to make a connection, "black and canid" can describe any other canid Pokémon.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:54, 11 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::Yea, but my point is that it's a "black and canid with correlation to the plausible Egyptian thematic and 'Evil'", which fits multiple aspects of it. | |||
:::It was accepted for quite a few days until it was edited, c'mon. | |||
::: [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 04:04, 11 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::Its behavior isn't chaotic or evil, judging by its Pokedex entries. To have an Egyptian motif is one thing, but the creature you are comparing it to is way too vague. All that is known about it that it is canine-like, which is way too little to try and say Umbreon is based off it.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 04:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::::The japanese, the original, name for the 'Dark type' is 'Evil type'. It doesn't need to be on the entries, it's right on its typing. | |||
:::::Although vague, the Set Animal also shares some really unusual details to Umbreon such as the always erected ears and tail. And the design differences could all be taken from the hare and fox previously on the origin. I know it may not be much, but Umbreon has always been an enigmatic creature and this somewhat can fill a few holes in its possible origin. All we had so far was the generic black cat and the moon rabbit (which doesn't explain the typing and most of its design), so, can't we just consider this as a possible one? | |||
:::::[[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 04:38, 11 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::::EDIT: I guess that's a no. rip {{unsigned|EXLight}} | |||
:::::::Just because it's called "evil" type in Japan, doesn't mean it has to literally be evil. Umbreon's ears and tails aren't always erect, and saying the set animal always has erect ears and tail is speculation. It's always depicted as having erect ears and tail, you can't say that it definitely has an erect tail and ears (if it were real). The moon rabbit explains the moon aspect of Umbreon, it's not commenting about its design.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 06:09, 16 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Sorry, but saying that an dark-type pokémon isn't necessarily based on something evil makes as much sense as saying that water-types aren't based on aquatic creatures. Are there exceptions? Yes, there are, but these are pretty rare cases that should be considered exceptions as a last resort. Dark-types are often overlooked due to this poor localization and feels really unfair to dismiss it like that. | |||
::::::::Umbreon is represented as having straight ears and tail in pretty much every official media I could find. Could you point out a few examples where they're notably curved? | |||
::::::::I know the moon rabbit isn't commenting about its design, what I'm saying is: the Set animal, despite not being perfect, is the best fit for it so far. I never denied that it has influences from the Moon Rabbit. | |||
::::::::My point here isn't Umbreon being based out of a biologically existent-or-not being used to represent the Set animal, what I'm saying is that its designer could've taken some from the characteristics of the Set animal's representation/symbolism itself and incorporated it to Umbreon's concept (Egyptian aesthetic, black slender canid, 'evil'-type, straight tail and ears, doesn't fit any known creature), that being the case it should be treated as a possible ''mythical'' origin, not a biological one. This kind of origin opens a large variety of interpretations by their creators (e.g. Dunsparce as a Tsuchinoko, Slowbro as the Sazae-oni, or Drampa as a Zhulong), so it's understandable it may not be perfectly accurate. [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 14:10, 18 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I said you're taking the '''name''' of the type too literally. Just because it's called Evil type, doesn't mean all Pokémon of that type are going to be evil (Umbreon isn't evil by behavior or causes chaos). Just because it's called Water type, doesn't mean all Pokémon of that type are going to be sentient water. That's what I meant by taking the name too literally. | |||
:::::::::You're making a biological comparison by saying that the "slender, black body" and "erect ear and tails" of Umbreon may be inspired from the set animal. Is the set animal actually black or usually depicted as black? All ancient drawings/paintings I've googled have it not colored, with colored ones I found usually being fan-art. As for having mythical origins, it's fine to say that it may have an Egyptian motif, which is already mentioned in the origin section.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 05:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Hmm, yes, I see, so that's the matter. You're right, it is not enough to prove a link between both, sorry about the fuss. Since the wiki accompanied strong references after the paragraph stating it was represented as black I kinda trusted it blindly, I should've searched more into it before considering it. Thanks for your time and patience. [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 20:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
== Umbreon and the Black Dog myths? == | |||
We already have Houndour line as the Pokémon take on hellhounds, but Umbreon itself can be seen as being inspired by other interpretations of the [[wp:Black dog (ghost)|black dogs]] in the British folklore, such as {{wp|Black Shuck}}. Plus since more people interpret Umbreon as a dog than a cat, would that be possible for Umbreon to be based off the Black Shuck or other ghostly black dogs? [[User:SpecialStageRoute|Special Stage Route]] ([[User talk:SpecialStageRoute|pit stop]]) 10:21, 17 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
:Houndoom's design references hellhounds and the devil, it's black, devilish, looks like dobermann, has horns, bones, arrow tail and ''demon'' in French and and German names. Umbreon is a vague cat and dog mix, isn't particularly evil, related to moonlight and has ''lucky'' in it's name. There's nothing to interpret it as clearly dog-like, plus British folklore isn't as known as Greek mythology.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 10:47, 17 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
::There are some black dogs that are actually benevolent or neutral instead of actively malevolent like others. Gurt Dog of Somerset and Hanging Hills' Black Dog are some of the benevolent black dogs, and Guardian Black Dogs in some stories are rendered as neutral ghost dogs. I can believe Umbreon would be based off those non-malevolent black dogs. [[User:SpecialStageRoute|Special Stage Route]] ([[User talk:SpecialStageRoute|pit stop]]) 16:58, 23 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, it isn't.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 17:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Poison == | |||
Would it be worth a trivia entry that Umbreon doesn't learn any Poison-type moves (other than formerly Toxic), despite having many Pokédex entries referencing poison? [[User:Eragon4|Eragon4]] ([[User talk:Eragon4|talk]]) 02:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC) | |||