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User talk:CycloneGU/ORAS Trainer Data

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This is a side note, but I believe this is also the case as with RSE. It's definitely different from GSCHGSS where each rematch actually increases in levels (also Badge-dependent though slightly different in that there's a progression to the final match at that point of the game). Dunno if that makes sense to you, haha. In any case, I'm not sure if the term "first", "second", etc. is a good term, but that means we need to find a replacement term (which may wind up being a hassle). ht14 07:12, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I said the same thing, and that's why I tried pushing for things like "After acquiring the Stone Badge" and so on. I have not checked R/S/E yet, and they are actually easier to check because I can use ROMs and save states unlike with OR/AS (though see my note below). I might add R/S/E checking to my projects after I finish this one; I have no updates yet for yesterday as I didn't get much played, but I have completed defeating Team Aqua and am ready to challenge Flannery.
The hardest part of the searching around will be during the time between the Balance Badge and the Feather Badge due to all the walking and new water routes to check out; thankfully, I will have electrical users to keep any rematch people in check quickly. Flying to Routes is convenient here after the Feather Badge and the one thing I wish R/S/E had too. At least I don't have to do 124-134 (which all open at once) too often in any game; since there's only one Gym afterwards, and I'm already done that Gym in OR and that's my current save point there, I can just take a walk around Hoenn in AS after obtaining Kyogre and then shift to OR for the post-Gym check. Convenient. Then I go for the Hall of Fame and that's the highest rematches anywhere, I believe, after that. CycloneGU (talk) 17:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Missing Trainers

I looked through the dumped ORAS Trainer data and put together a list of the Trainers that have multiple teams/matches who you're currently missing (and who aren't more part of the story, like Brendan/May/Wally, the E4, Steven...).

All the Trainers you currently have on the page should have 5 different teams (4 rematches). And their Trainer class pages currently do have that number of teams.

All of these below are the missing Trainers, and they have the correct number of teams on their Trainer class page too (but since they only say "[ordinal] rematch", it's not certain what Badge they might be triggered off of (if any)). The table is also sortable, for convenience.

Matches Trainer class Name(s) Location
2 Old Couple John & Jay Meteor Falls
Ace Duo Jude & Rory Victory Road (Hoenn)
Dragon Tamer Nicolas Meteor Falls
3 Free Diver Arzu Hoenn Route 124
Sailor Ernest Hoenn Route 125
Swimmer Jenny Hoenn Route 124
Scuba Diver Kylan Hoenn Route 124
4 Bug Maniac Brandon Hoenn Route 120
Psychic Cameron Hoenn Route 123
Street Thug Gomez Hoenn Route 120
Triathlete Isaiah Hoenn Route 128
Beauty Jessica Hoenn Route 121
Fairy Tale Girl Momo Mt. Pyre
Sis & Bro Rita & Sam Hoenn Route 124
Bird Keeper Robert Hoenn Route 120
Delinquent Sharlene Hoenn Route 120
Hex Maniac Valerie Mt. Pyre
Gentleman Walter Hoenn Route 121
5 Triathlete Benjamin Hoenn Route 110
Pokémon Ranger Catherine Hoenn Route 119
Battle Girl Cyndy Hoenn Route 115
Picnicker Diana Jagged Pass
Ruin Maniac Dusty Hoenn Route 111
Camper Ethan Jagged Pass
Pokémon Ranger Jackson Hoenn Route 119
Brains & Brawn Jael & Kael Hoenn Route 119
Young Couple Lois & Hal Sea Mauville
Ace Trainer Neville Hoenn Route 108
Black Belt Nob Hoenn Route 115
Ace Trainer Portia Hoenn Route 109
Mysterious Sisters Scall & Ion Sea Mauville
Expert Shelby Jagged Pass
Poké Maniac Steve Hoenn Route 114
Expert Timothy Hoenn Route 115
Swimmer Tony Hoenn Route 107

Also (of course): Interviewers Gabby and Ty (6 matches).

Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! I will use that as a reference to fill in parts of the table. I've been working on a couple of more minor items lately (one possibly reformatting List of routes - see my userspace edits - and the other helping add spriteboxes today), and I have been playing Fantasy Life a little more lately, so depending on what gaming activity occurs this evening I might go fight Norman this evening and check for more unlocks. The purpose of the project, of course, is to add the Badge data, but the information you have will let me virtually complete those parts of the table with everything except the badge rematch data.
Also, as you noticed, rivals and anyone encountered in the storyline (for instance, random battle with May on 119 or Wally in Mauville City) are not in this project; it's only those who stay in the same place on the same Route with exception of Gabby and Ty, who have three stationary locations. Gabby and Ty are an interesting experiment because I have to check if the rematch data generates starting from theior 118 location, which would mean I don't have to battle them in different places to get the higher teams. It also means their 118 and 120 encounters might already be rematches in terms of Gym progress, but it's assumed that the initial team on 111 does not change. Sadly, I saved after battling them, so can't visit them there after beating Norman until I move them back there. CycloneGU (talk) 21:14, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to edit down the chart above as I go, if that's all right with you.
To start, I've removed Triathlete Benjamin, who had existing entries (now completed). I removed Ace Trainer Portia, who I added just to finish the Route 109 set. Finally, deleted Poké Maniac Steve, whose one entry was hidden previously above the Kindler, both now completed. I have not removed Ruin Maniac Dusty as I just opened the desert (and actually forgot about him on the last update), and I have also left Picnicker Diana, Camper Ethan, and Expert Shelby on the Jagged Pass, which I should really explore with an Acro Bike to clear out properly (and maybe create the table). Routes 105-108 remain undone except for the land part of 106, and I'll document them when I hit the water; I might import a Surfing Pikachu after defeating Norman so I can get all initial matches done, and then use that Pikachu against the Flying Gym as well. Route 115 is still blank for now, intentional; I will know to start there next time. That means 116 and 117 will follow, and Jagged Pass should get added then as well. That will drop, I think, six lines off the table right there from 115 and Jagged Pass. CycloneGU (talk) 07:52, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Another thing I've just discovered that it may also be worth noting (somewhere, somehow) is that you can rematch a Trainer with their initial team it seems. I never thought to try it with the early Trainers, but I was looking for a rematch on Route 106 before getting the Dewford badge (Knuckle), and Fisherman Elliot faced me with the same team he had when I first battled him. Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I know that already. I'm not sure whether it's worthwhile putting the initial team as a "rematch", but I know it's possible to rematch an original team. One Triathlete kept asking me to beat up his Doduo, so I was happy to oblige; it was always Lv.18. LOL CycloneGU (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

[Outdent] All tables are now on the page. The original table in Tiddlywinks' post has been restored. All that's left are the rematch triggers, which seem to be badges so far and likely will stay that way. CycloneGU (talk) 22:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Bug Catcher James, Fisherman Elliott, and Expert Timothy

I'm being very anal to check the Trainers after every Event to make sure I get every unlock point. I'm extremely certain that the Fisherman's upgrade is not available right away after obtaining the Knuckle Badge. I'm also equally certain that the event of meeting Steven, thus unlocking Route 109 and Slateport City, also unlocks Bug Catcher James doing an upgrade, as I checked around the area before goin g to meet Steven and James did not upgrade after the Knuckle Badge.

I just confirmed yet another upgrade like those: Expert Timothy, first available at Route 115 AFTER geting the Balance Badge, upgrades while you do the Southern Island events. Certain in-game events can themselves trigger NPCs upgrading their teams, I am finding.

I'm going to do a lap and see if any other Lv.31 teams are unlocked, or even anything else (like Poké Maniac Steve going to Lv.32). After this lap, I'm off to the Weather Institute and will be doing ANOTHER lap. After that, I'll be off to Fortree, and I can finally Fly to make my checks a lot quicker after that. I'm not in a hurry to check Sea Mauville, however, because I'm fairly sure that the Lv.34 teams will NOT unlock at this point in the game; I might go do the initial battles as I swim by, though, as I skipped it before. CycloneGU (talk) 20:26, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's the thing. I'm sitting immediately after the Knuckle Badge and I tell you the rematches are as I edited. However sure you may be, I'm the one who can experiment and relate the results right now (I have, in fact, just triple checked myself on James and Elliot, with the same results); compared to that, your memory/experience practically must be held suspect... When you want to reset and get to that point again yourself (and stay there until we can be fairly sure you're right/there's something else going on), then we can start believing there might actually be a conflict. Since it's your user page, I won't redo it, but if/when this stuff finds its way into the mainspace, you can be sure I will.
Let me ask something that's been on my mind a bit: how do you check rematches? After an "event", do you just open the AreaNav or go to the route and see if they're ready for a battle, and assume if they're not then they haven't upgraded? Because as far as I've been able to tell, there's no reliable way to get Trainers to ask for a rematch; it's basically just luck. And if you ask me, it makes more sense for rematches to just depend on the Badge(s) you have. Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
If you are absolutely sure - and you seem to be, since you are obviously there now - I'll go ahead and put that change back in. I've noticed that the levels of the various teams everywhere can be a good indicator of rematches happening, and other Knuckle Badge unlocks have similar levels, so it's plausible that I made mistakes there. I'll answer regarding how I do rematches while I explain how I figured that out.
Every time I complete a badge or a story event, I start making a lap of the parts of the Hoenn region that I have unlocked. When I completed the Knuckle Badge, I went and spoke to the Fisherman and ended up with his original team. It is possible (as you said, it was some time ago and I'd have to reset to go back and check) that I may have not saved after battling him the first time, so that might be why I didn't get a Knuckle Badge upgrade team. I'm still sure regarding Bug Catcher James, but if you are going back to him with a Knuckle Badge in hand and getting his upgrade before Slateport, then it's possible I erred there as well. I'm not perfect, after all, and never claim to be. =)
As for how rematches trigger, it seems random in a sense. Actually, after battling someone, you can wander around and do a few more battles with other Trainers (also rematches) and keep checking the AreaNav; when a rematch appears for the Trainer you're checking, you head back and battle them right away again. I did this with Dusty in the Desert. By the time he was ready, he hadn't upgraded (I had not beaten Norman), and I reset and battled Norman; after beating Norman, Dusty had an upgraded team. Timothy I tried to check, but I got Latias before his rematch came up, so you may want to earmark him to check a second time before obtaining the legendary at Southern Island (I'll try to use Power Saves to go back, myself, and not save what I do). If you find the rematch is there before the events at Southern Island, then I'll accept that there is no trigger for it since you can't reach him until after getting the badge that would "trigger" the rematch; further, if there are no other teams found upgraded right now, I might accept that the rematch may be available right away and change it myself.
Also, you said it's weird that all on a oute don't upgrade at the same time. One on northern 104 upgrades after the Heat Badge; the other (with the one in southern 104) upgrades with the Balance Badge. It is by Trainer, not by Route, that I am certain of. CycloneGU (talk) 22:27, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, Route 106 and Graeme illustrated very well that it's not by route, but I still find that an odd choice.
So far I'm turning out to be more enthusiastic about this rematch data than I thought I would be, so I'll keep checking teams about as well as I can. (Mostly, I plan to rematch every newly registered Trainer ASAP, just to check, and I'll also check everyone right after getting a new Badge. Doing a "safety" check of all teams right before a Gym challenge may be a little much for me, though.) I'll see what I can do about Timothy when I reach thereabouts. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Timothy is a special case. Since he's only available after getting the Balance Badge (otherwise one would have to hack a way over the mountain), it's very well possible that his one level upgrade is immediately available after battling a few Trainers in other areas (battle the other two rematches there, head back to 114 and 113, then check the AreaNav after entering 113, battle more if needed, head to 111, etc.). Also, the "safety check" isn't something I always do; I did it in the case of Flannery and Norman because there are no events between the two challenges, and those wanting to train might want to know who has a new team to challenge. Other than going around after in-game events - for example, I will Fly around after clearing the Mt. Pyre events since there's still more at Lilycove City and the Team Hideout before you can even get to the Gym at Mossdeep, and I don't know if the rival in Lilycove can be battled either before or after the events by choice, one time event regardless - there's no reason to "safety check" again until taking on the Route 128 undersea cavern, after which you fight the legendary. That will be my first visit to Routes 102 and 104 in a while since they are pretty much done already except for the final teams, and some final teams are Lv.47 while others are Lv.54, so there are likely different unlock criteria for them.
At this point, the thing I'm most concerned with - since you found me the dump data - is that the data is correct. I thought I got different data in a couple of battles, such as a Lv.27 with one of the 117 breeders' teams, but the chance of that being accurate is extremely low since the latest team is all the same level (and no evolutions through Lv.50, I'm seeing - that's unique). One of the 109 Tubers also gave me, I thought, different money. Little things that are likely just misreads on my part. So yeah, it's also about data verification as it's possible it was reported wrong as well. CycloneGU (talk) 23:57, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Mysterious Sisters Scall & Ion

This pair is in Room 1 of Sea Mauville. The Room 1 Key requires Dive to obtain. Therefore, I think we will be able, on the main page, to label the pair as requiring Dive to access.

This provides an interesting complication. The rematches are the same levels as Young Couple Lois and Hal, who upgrade at the same pace as the sisters. Fly is the unlock from Fortree Gym, and Dive is the unlock from Mossdeep Gym. I'm starting to think that one of the dumped rematch data sets for the sisters might be completely unavailable in the game, so this might be worth exploring after obtaining the Mind Badge. It will be our first encounter with the sisters, and we have to go away for a while (thank you Fly!) to get them to generate their first rematch, so that will be when to find out if Lv.33/34 gets skipped. If the Young Couple upgrades to 40 at the time we meet the sisters, I think it does get skipped. CycloneGU (talk) 01:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Rematch items

There's one other thing that's at least tangentially related to all this: after a rematch, some Trainers definitely have a chance of giving you an item. I would suspect that all of the rematchable Trainers can. So...

This is a list of all locations where there are rematchable Trainers whose gift hasn't been identified yet:

So far, stated chances for some Trainers' items are 30%, 20%, 10%, and 5%. If you're lucky, then, you've probably got a good chance of finding a gift within 20 resets for the higher chances, or within maybe 50-60 for the lower chances. If anyone figures out all the missing gifts for the rematchable Trainers at a location, feel free to remove it from the list above.

If you've tried a lot of resetting and you don't think a Trainer will give a gift, say so here and I (and perhaps others) will spend some time with the Trainer and see if I can't find anything. Tiddlywinks (talk) 10:10, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

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