Talk:Whirl Cup

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I just noticed that the logo on the poster looks like the haed of a celebi should this be in the trivia or am i over thinking it? Rucario64 01:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you're overthinking it. And plus, headers on talk pages should be Level 2 Headers, unless it's a subsection of the current subject. - espeonA 02:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Ohh yeah! Sorry about that thanks anyway!Rucario64 02:22, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Misty's ranking

In the EP217 "The Perfect Match!", after the win of Trinity against Misty, the commentator says that she is advancing to the semi-finals so Misty made Top 8, Ash Top 16 and so on, no? - unsigned comment from LeoKetchumB (talkcontribs)

From the episode's article's Errors section:
Also in the English dub, the announcer says that the winner of the third round match between Misty and Trinity would advance to the semi-finals, but the fourth round of a 64-member tournament would be the quarter-finals (64→32→16→8).
It might not hurt to mention this discrepancy somewhere on this article, however. --Pie ~ 17:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
New argument in the EP226 "Espeon, Not Included", Misty tells Sakura that she has finished Top 8 and Ash Top 16 --LeoKetchumB (talk) 15:09, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
That was also an error: Misty says that she was in the "Best 8" of the Whirl Cup and Ash was in the "Best 16", but they were really in the "Best 16" and "Best 32", respectively. This error was probably a result of the earlier made error. Because we know for certain the battle between Misty and Trinity was a third round match, and that the Whirl Cup has 64 participants. That undoubtedly means the winner of Misty vs. Trinity went to the fourth round, which is quarterfinals, which is Top 8 and as such Misty ended Top 16 and Ash ended Top 32. There's no doubt about this, it's only that the writers screwed up with the rankings two times. ☼ BlazingFist ☼ 15:46, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I'm pretty sure it would be Champion (final round winner), then Top 2 (final round runner up), then Top 4 (semi-finals), then Top 8 (quarter-finals), then Top 16, then Top 32, then Top 64, then everyone else, so in point of fact, Misty would actually be Top 8, not Top 16, and likewise Ash would in fact be Top 16. Think the Silver Conference or the other leagues, as they generally do those kinds of multipliers. Also, Misty and Trinity were actually the quarter-finals. Trinity and the Feraligatr trainer were the semi-finals [that much was made very clear not just from the dialogue but also from the visuals of the ending of the episode], and whoever that trainer fought against was the finals. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 02:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
EDIT: Correction: Since the match Trinity lost to was the finals (not just stated, but also made clear from the awards ceremony in terms of visuals), that would actually make Misty top 4, not top 8. Likewise, that would make Ash top 8, not top 16. 02:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Reopening this older discussion for good purpose. I hope we can finally close this case once and for all. Let's rearrange the facts:
1. There are 64 competitors in the final round. This is a fact, look at the tournament chart at the end of "Dueling Heroes".
2. Ash battles Christopher, while Misty battles Harrison in the first round (64). This is also a fact, stated through dialogue.
3. Ash and Misty's battle takes place in the second round (32). Stated so through dialogue, also confirmed through the tournament chart.
4. Misty's and Trinity's battle takes place in the third round (16). Misty has had no off-screen battles after her match with Ash, as the night after their match they talk about it in video conversation with Oak. That same moment, Trinity comes up to Misty and announces herself as her next opponent, and she clearly states: in the third round. The next day, at the beginning of their match, the announcer states: only 16 competitors left.
5. The announcer also does say "semi-finals", which is top 4, but we should either take this with a grain of salt or consider it an error. Everything else up to this point has made clear that Misty vs. Trinity is a top 16 battle. Further evidence: at the beginning of the match the judge says: "same rules as second round". After the match, the announcer and Misty both mention semi-finals again, but again let's consider this an error.
6. Now, this is were it gets foggy with Trinity. I'm pretty sure her match against the Feraligatr Trainer is the finals and she ended runner-up, since why else would she be standing next to the winner? At the start of their match, the announcer didn't make any mention of a round, he only said "moving on to the second round of the day", which could mean anything. Since I perfectly explained how Misty vs. Trinity was Top 16, and her match against the Feraligatr Trainer is probably the finals, that means they skipped the fourth round (quarter-finals, top 8) and fifth round (semi-finals, top 4) matches of Trinity, which as such probably took place off-screen. This makes sense to me, because why should they have showed them? She's a minor character. Concluding, the multiple mention of "semi-finals" could also not be an error, but a deliberate choice. For the Whirl Cup, the semi-finals is probably a combination of the quarter-finals and semi-finals, although we will never be sure. In the Silver Conference, the word semi-final was used for the round-robin tournament (top 48), while the top 16 were called the final rounds.
7. Conclusion: Ash Top 32, Misty Top 16, Trinity Runner-up. Discussion closed if you ask me. ☼ BlazingFist ☼ 14:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more objective and neutral to just mention how exact ranking of Misty in Whirl Cup is unclear(whether she was top 8 or top 16). Due to so many contradictions and weird ranking system seeming to take place in Whirl Cup?

You mentioned how there were no of screen battles after battle with Ash, but fact of not all rounds being showed in Whirl Cup does give indication how writers may had skipped one of rounds in which Misty participated before facing Ash without being mentioned or covered up.

There also exist various information in Whirl Cup contradicting each other. For instance why would announcer mention both before Misty vs Trinity how winner gets on semi finals and confirming so once again after battle ended? Even Ash, Misty and Brock further confirmed on that through dialogue when saying how they will be cheering for her in "tomorrow semi finals". And logic says how semi finals would mean best 4 trainers facing each other(at least that's how ranking in most tournaments works).

We could apply this to errors, but than how can we know how mention of Misty facing Trinity in "third round" of Whirl Cup wasn't error too, and semi finals was accurate state of things?

Especially when Misty herself said again to her friend Sakura in episode "Espeon Not Included!" how she came top 8, while Ash ended among top 16?

There exists too many uncertainties that we can't be 100% sure what place in end Misty reached there varying between top 16 and top 8. Because there exists evidence for both of them to be true.--Pokemon fan 132 (talk) 07:02, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, we really should keep it at Top 8 and Top 16. It's better off that way, especially when the entire thing is wonky as it is (Trinity's match against the Feraligatr trainer is implied if not stated to be the match after her match with Misty, meaning it would be impossible for it to be the semi-finals, let alone the finals). Maybe if Dogasu does or redoes his comparison of the Whirl Cup arc in the future, we could use that, but for now, we have to use what the dub stated. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 11:35, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
1)It was very clearly stated that Misty and Trinity's match was the third round (Top 16)
2)Ash and Misty's match was clearly stated to be the second round (Top 32)
3)Saying that there may have been a round in between Ash vs Misty and Misty vs Trinity is pure speculation. Yes, they skipped the quarter final and semi final, but we can clearly see that (as the match between Trinity and the Feraligatr trainer had to have been the final round). There was no clear indication that there was a round in between Ash vs Misty and Trinity vs Misty, saying so is, again, pure speculation.
4)The error in EP226 was simply a continuity error. Nothing new there. The series makes many continuity errors.
5)Bottom line, Ash finished Top 32, Misty finished Top 16.--ForceFire 03:00, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Except Trinity's match against the Feraligatr trainer, which was clearly the final round, was immediately after her fight with Misty, meaning it can't realistically be the quarter-finals. That's why we HAVE to use Top 8 or Top 4, since it makes zero sense for it to be the final round and yet have Misty and Trinity's match not be the semi-final round. At least the manner I did it actually allowed for some compromise, really, note what was stated in the episodes yet at the same time implement what was realistically their rankings. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 23:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
... If Misty's match was the third round (which was very clearly stated), and Trinity's match with the Feraligatr trainer was the final round, it is then logical to assume that the quarter and semi finals were skipped. Simple.--ForceFire 03:23, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
What imposes question though is how can we know for sure that mention of third round in Misty match vs Trinity wasn't error and winner of that match continuing to semi finals was real state of things?

Because through whole episode "Perfect Match!" it was also mentioned both before match, after battle finished and later that night how Trinity apparently after beating Misty proceeded to semi finals? Raising question, did some of Misty battles just like it was case with Trinity happened of screen being skipped as well. After all preliminaries were also very briefly covered not even getting chance to see battles or opponents properly.

How can we know that wasn't truth with episode "Espeon Not Included!" when Misty coming top 8 as ranking was mentioned again wasn't writers way of reaffirming what was her position in Whirl Cup, rather than continuity error?

I would like that this confusing situation gets resolved as much as anyone else, but there simply exists too many contradicting statements and situations displayed in Whirl Cup, let alone following dialogues to be completely sure how high she and Ash placed in end,. Ranging from top 32/16 for Ash case to top 16/8 in Misty case.

And for reputable site like Bulbapedia which is using only clear cut facts and confirmation building thrust among readers and visitors that way as reliable source of information. If we aren't sure about something with there existing place for doubts, than I honestly think its better to leave some things unclear, rather than presenting one side of story and ignoring the other. Hence why currently placed ranking for Ash and Misty regarding Whirl Cup article is in my opinion only objective way to go.--Pokemon fan 132 (talk) 08:27, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm still in favour of Top 16 for Misty and Top 32 for Ash, but arguing about it is giving me a headache and hopefully everyone agrees with the current state of things. I will say this though: everything during the Whirl Cup arc (so not many episodes after with the Sakura thing) but the announcer saying semi-final points to Misty vs Trinity being third round. Trinity says so, announcer says "only 16 competitors left", and referee says "same rules as second round". That's three separate confirmations through dialogue of it being third round. ☼ BlazingFist ☼ 20:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
What is said in the Japanese version? That's probably important to know. --Abcboy (talk) 23:42, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to bring this old discussion up again, but it would be good to get this sorted out once and for all. In the end, I agree with Abcboy that someone will need to watch the Japanese episode to confirm what their rankings are. But I thought I might as well add my thoughts here after watching the Korean dub (which hopefully should be closer to the Japanese episode than the English dub). The Korean dub definitely says Ash vs. Misty is the 2nd round, and that Misty vs. Trinity is the 3rd round. It also says that there are 16 competitors in the 3rd round who are battling to get into quarterfinals. There's absolutely no confusion here, and I doubt there would be any confusion in the Japanese. I know we'll have to end up needing to confirm with the Japanese anyway, but I am in favour of saying Top 16 for Misty and Top 32 for Ash. --Wowy(토크) 03:51, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm confused by why my edit removing a bit claiming Misty placed in the top 4 got reverted considering nothing pointed to in the discussion here over the past four years says anything like that. TardisTybort (talk) 18:05, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
I see that this discussion has clearly been going for a while. EP215 and EP216 contain no inconsistencies. Though EP217 does. Misty and Trinity's match is clearly stated to be a Top 16 match, though in this same statement it is mentioned that the winner will go onto the "semi-finals" when it actually should be the "quarter-finals". When Trinity goes up against that Feraligatr Trainer it is mentioned that it is the "second match" for that round, meaning this is likely the "semi finals". On this line of thinking, Trinity went through the quarter finals, but it may not have been shown as both Misty and Ash had been knocked out by this stage. The other thing to note it that the Feraligatr Trainer looks sightly different to the Whirl Cup Winner, and the main difference is their shirts. While the light conditions differ between these two scenes, Trinity's clothing is much the same. Yet Feraligatr Trainer has more of a bluey-green shirt while the winner has a green shirt, what if these two are in fact doppelgangers and thus different people?PardescanSlowbro (talk) 07:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
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