Well, it seems like we're getting back two of the major players in this deck... in fact, until Fossil, they were the major players. But can Haymaker make it without Bill and Oak? I know we've got Mom's Kindness to replace Bill, but can Professor Rowan work as well as Oak did? TTEchidna 18:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- Mom's Kindness is horribly marred by being a Supporter card. As for Rowan...we'll just have to see. My concern is, will a classic archetype be able to stand up to modern archetypes? I think not, to be honest. Regardless, no doubt this article will get a much-deserved makeover when DPt1 is released here in February. Cipher 18:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps it's just me, but back in the early days of Pokemon TCG, I never heard of a Haymaker with Dark Vileplume. In my experience, Dark Vileplume decks were specifically anti-Haymaker decks. The Haymaker decks that I was familiar with never had evolution cards; that was part of the definition of a Haymaker deck. Those Haymaker decks had over 20 trainer cards, with 4X Professor Oak mandatory. Scyther was used in most of the Haymaker decks that I saw, to block Hitmonchan from other Haymakers and also for a possible second turn knock-out (Swords Dance on the first turn, attach a DCE and Plus Power on the 2nd turn to Slash for 70). Trainers like Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal were also mandatory, as defense against opposing Haymakers. Pikabruce 17:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Don't forget Scyther!
Haymakers were around since day one, and when Jungle was released, it got even better. Jungle Scyther was a key card in Haymakers, because of its ability to do 60 damage by turn 2 (1st turn: Grass Energy, Swords Dance. 2nd turn: DCE, Slash). I definitely recommend updating this article to reflect Scyther's role in Haymaker. -- Nick15 05:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
The Promo Mewtwo card also saw a lot of play in haymakers decks alongside the 3 in the article and of course Scyther, whom should also be in there. Mewtwo's ability to quickly pick up energy and his basic 3 energy haymaker damage move made him very quick. He saw a lot of play back in the day.
This Is Not Haymaker
Some of the following was addressed by older discussion comments, but there is no indication of any resolution. The content in question is still present, with no evidence to support it as being correct, and sometimes it is questionable within itself.
Haymaker decks, by definition, only contain Basic Pokémon. If the deck has an Evolution, it isn't a "Haymaker" deck. Haymaker's are a kind of beatdown deck; relying mostly on a fast but reliable attackers, with most of the higher strategy coming from Trainers. "Beatdown" decks themselves span most TCGs.
The goal of a Haymaker deck (besides winning) was to minimize how many Basic Pokémon and Energy you needed to maximize room for Trainers, in turn allowing you to hit hard, hit fast, and hit reliably. The deck needed Trainers to function; as such not only is it incorrect to claim Dark Vileplume was run in the deck (because the deck by definition was not meant to include Evolutions) but even if you did bend that rule, Dark Vileplume completely countered the deck's own strategy. Trainers were important for speed and advanced strategy in Haymaker decks; without the assault of Trainers to keep an opponent from building, those 70 HP Basic Pokémon were in big trouble against a lot of other Evolutions.
Haymaker decks did change over time, but the article doesn't get their "evolution" correct and has some issues with how it says cards were used.
1) Why would someone run Erika's Clefairy instead of Energy Search?
2) Double Colorless Energy was used in the deck, but you only attached it to Hitmonchan (Base Set 7/102) if you thought you were a bit desperate (needed to manually retreat or it was the only Energy available to meet the (C) Energy requirement of Special Punch). Its best application was to power up the "Slash" attack on Scyther (Jungle 10/64, 26/64) or to power-up almost any attack on Ditto (Fossil 3/62, 18/62).
I'd be happy to edit the page with what I know: I didn't have access to Organized Play or the online community pre-Neo Genesis, but like many I stumbled upon Haymaker on my own, and once I did learn about the online community I quickly read up on these things.
- It took me several years, but I finally got into another debate with someone claiming Haymaker ran 20 Energy, and I remembered this page needed some TLC. My time was short, so if there are some serious formatting issues, please just correct them instead of reverting the page.Otakutron (talk) 01:06, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
- I did not wish to wait as long before confirming and correcting aspects of my previous statements, in light of some new information... which I already had access to, if only I'd remembered at the time.
- Pojo's Unofficial Ultimate Pokémon: 20th Anniversary Special Edition is a collaborative work published in 2016. Though I am one of the authors involved, I am not the source of the information I wish to reference; rather it an article within the book by Jason Klaczynski. The work in question is titled The Top 10 Greatest Decks of All Time. His choice for the second best deck of all time (found on page 114) is Haymaker, specifically a build restricted to only cards from the Base Set. Due to the fact this work is still relatively new and still on sale, as well as the list reflecting only the earliest days of the deck, I do not wish to post it verbatim but it proved that the deck was likely to run more Energy cards than I realized (though less than the list I replaced).
- Otakutron (talk) 19:38, 25 July 2017 (UTC)