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User talk:Weedle Mchairybug: Difference between revisions
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:::::"''Also, you mentioned earlier that people have called you biased on Serebii, PokeCommunity, and the Bulbagarden forums. I only say this to try to offer some constructive criticism, but if there are three separate communities saying the same thing, I fear that there may be some truth within their words. If your initial talk page post on Misty's Starmie had been something like "Misty didn't really lose since the battle was interrupted, but I agree that it needs to be rewritten", I would completely understand. Instead, your post contained a fairly lengthy paragraph about the exact circumstances of the battle, theoretical ways in which the battle could have progressed, and a comparison to a separate episode. I feel like that's a bit much considering Temari44 only mentioned the Gym battle in a small part of their post.''" | :::::"''Also, you mentioned earlier that people have called you biased on Serebii, PokeCommunity, and the Bulbagarden forums. I only say this to try to offer some constructive criticism, but if there are three separate communities saying the same thing, I fear that there may be some truth within their words. If your initial talk page post on Misty's Starmie had been something like "Misty didn't really lose since the battle was interrupted, but I agree that it needs to be rewritten", I would completely understand. Instead, your post contained a fairly lengthy paragraph about the exact circumstances of the battle, theoretical ways in which the battle could have progressed, and a comparison to a separate episode. I feel like that's a bit much considering Temari44 only mentioned the Gym battle in a small part of their post.''" | ||
:::::Hey, I tend to get very detailed in my replies. It's basically a quirk of mine due to both my aspergers and also my parents specifically demanding I get more detailed in my answers rather than saying "just because", "I felt like it", or even going extremely general about who "they" are when I say "people". As far as that big about Bulbapedia, Pokecommunity, and Serebii.net, usually it's just the same people who happen to be members of all three sites, and either way, just because three entities claim something doesn't necessarily make it true. Just ask the coverage about the Vietnam War by the major networks. All showed the worst aspects about Vietnam, yet it eventually came to light that all of them, especially the so-called "most trusted man in America" Walter Cronkite, were extremely biased against the war and in Cronkite's case may have even up and out lied through his teeth during the Tet offensive. A similar story can be shown with the Trayvon Martin case. And I only replied in that sense because he specifically said that Misty lost that battle (and I wasn't even disagreeing with his overall argument that Misty's Starmie was weak. If anything, I fully agreed with his argument, including its loss against Giselle's Graveler, and only had a minor quibble with Misty's Starmie being stated to have lost the Cerulean Gym battle, and that's only because there was literally nothing to suggest it lost before Team Rocket interfered.). [[User:Weedle Mchairybug|Weedle Mchairybug]] ([[User talk:Weedle Mchairybug|talk]]) 21:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | :::::Hey, I tend to get very detailed in my replies. It's basically a quirk of mine due to both my aspergers and also my parents specifically demanding I get more detailed in my answers rather than saying "just because", "I felt like it", or even going extremely general about who "they" are when I say "people". As far as that big about Bulbapedia, Pokecommunity, and Serebii.net, usually it's just the same people who happen to be members of all three sites, and either way, just because three entities claim something doesn't necessarily make it true. Just ask the coverage about the Vietnam War by the major networks. All showed the worst aspects about Vietnam, yet it eventually came to light that all of them, especially the so-called "most trusted man in America" Walter Cronkite, were extremely biased against the war and in Cronkite's case may have even up and out lied through his teeth during the Tet offensive. A similar story can be shown with the Trayvon Martin case. And I only replied in that sense because he specifically said that Misty lost that battle (and I wasn't even disagreeing with his overall argument that Misty's Starmie was weak. If anything, I fully agreed with his argument, including its loss against Giselle's Graveler, and only had a minor quibble with Misty's Starmie being stated to have lost the Cerulean Gym battle, and that's only because there was literally nothing to suggest it lost before Team Rocket interfered.). [[User:Weedle Mchairybug|Weedle Mchairybug]] ([[User talk:Weedle Mchairybug|talk]]) 21:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | ||
::::::"''I guess you could say Staryu might have been a factor, but even without Staryu, the episode Bye Bye Butterfree already made clear it can fully heal from being exposed to water. And that's not even getting into how Generation III later had Staryu and Starmie have an ability to outright heal from water type attacks (and it wouldn't be the first time they did abilities for Pokemon based on an earlier episode. See Rhydon and it having Lightning Rod as an ability in a direct reference to the infamous Aim for the Horn situation during Blaine's Gym Battle).''" | |||
::::::Neither Staryu nor Starmie have Water Absorb as a possible Ability. | |||
::::::"''It still would have been a definite factor in whether or not Starmie would have been in a disadvantageous situation or not (and I define "disadvantageous" as "absolutely no way to get out of trouble", not "small chance of getting out of trouble" but "literally 0% chance").''" | |||
::::::The definition of disadvantage is "an unfavorable circumstance or condition that reduces the chances of success or effectiveness"; it does ''not'' mean "0% chance of prevailing". Misty's Starmie was explicitly stated to be low on energy (but not actually knocked out), which means it was at a disadvantage. | |||
::::::"''The only time where being exposed to water DIDN'T heal it was during the battle against Giselle when it was knocked into the pool (which, BTW, the person specifically referenced and I even agreed with him), and even there it was explicitly shown that Starmie's core had been smashed beforehand (which actually backs up its Pokedex entry if anything).''" | |||
::::::I'm fairly sure that this "water healing" attribute was only ever displayed once in EP021. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to say "the only time where being exposed to water DIDN'T heal it" when it only happened ''once''. | |||
::::::"''If they wanted to actually indicate Misty was inevitably going to lose, they should have made sure to have Starmie's core explicitly crack from impact and then flash to imply that the core was damaged and thus cannot heal. And I realize full well they acknowledged it was that, but that unfortunately isn't enough since I've seen plenty of instances where they outright state an opponent is at a disadvantage with the person winning attempting to press the attack, only for the winning individual to end up defeated at the last second (like Tealc's fight against that fake Jaffah rebel leader for example, or to keep it contained to Pokemon like how Caterpie defeated Jessie and James, heck, how Ash turned the tide against Jessie during his Viridian Gym Match), or otherwise it being made clear afterwards that they weren't in any danger and just trying to increase drama [the latter bit I'm specifically thinking of how Gotenks in an attempt at staging a dramatic finish exaggerated how Super Buu is cleaning his clock, only for Piccolo to take it seriously and seal the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and it then being revealed after the fact that Gotenks was actually bluffing about losing meaning Piccolo blew up the entrance for nothing].). I would have said the same thing if it were Ash and Pidgeotto in their shoes (well, okay, maybe not quite to that level since unlike Starmie, Pidgeotto doesn't heal from absorbing water).''" | |||
::::::Again, a disadvantage is not an unwinnable situation. I also don't think the Gotenks situation is comparable since it was made clear to the readers/viewers that he was faking it even before Piccolo destroyed the door (and truth be told, Gotenks ultimately ''did'' fail to beat Super Buu because he's an idiot and refused to actually take the fight seriously until much later). [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 22:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::"''Fine, I stand corrected regarding who used the sledgehammer, but my point still stands. And for the record, what you used as a counterargument is a very bad argument in itself, since I can easily use that exact argument to just shut down the wiki altogether and delete all articles precisely BECAUSE they do progression and never bring it up again, thus can't qualify as facts, thus can't allow for an encyclopedia or even summaries (I'm an all or nothing kind of guy).''" | |||
::::::I'm sorry, but I feel like this is a huge stretch. My argument is based on information specifically presented in the episode itself, while yours is theorizing on how Misty could still make a comeback based on information ''not'' presented in the episode. I don't see how Starmie displaying a one-time attribute of being rejuvenated from a water blast in a later episode should be used as an argument for the Gym battle; Misty never said anything like "If I can just get Starmie into the water, I still have a chance". | |||
::::::"''Either way, the fact that Staryu and Starmie later on got Water Absorb would indicate they thought specifically of that scene when deciding on those abilities for them (similar to Rhydon having Lightning Rod), so more likely than not it has that ability. Heck, Misty's Starmie's article even specifically noted that it carried at the very least a similar ability to Water Absorb and cited that particular scene.''"" | |||
::::::Just to reiterate: '''Neither Staryu nor Starmie have Water Absorb as a possible Ability'''. Their regular abilities are Illuminate and Natural Cure, along with gaining Analytic as a Hidden Ability starting with Gen V. | |||
::::::"''Being the evolved form of Staryu, I'm pretty sure Starmie probably retained that ability. Heck, its article even indicated it had regenerative abilities as well.''" | |||
::::::Again, this is used in the context of lost body parts. It's certainly not something like an immediate healing factor. | |||
::::::"''As I stated above, the problem is that there have been plenty of instances where they stated they were in a disadvantageous situation in an episode or even a game (both inside the Pokemon anime and even in other franchises), yet the person at a disadvantage outright prevailed against the superior opponent, so that unfortunately isn't even enough to acknowledge that bit (as when I think of disadvantageous situations, I specifically have in mind instances where there's no way to get out of trouble, and by "no way" I mean literally 0% chance of survivability, let alone prevailing.). That's why I still think the situation was very ambiguous ESPECIALLY given Starmie's later being revealed to have a similar ability to Water Absorb during the events of Bye Bye Butterfree. Heck, if anything, Ash's Caterpie came far closer to actually BEING in an explicit disadvantageous situation when he fought Ekans, Koffing, and Meowth due to having the entire deck stacked against him (aside from the illegal at the time 2-on-1 match that Team Rocket forced Ash into, their Ekans and Koffing had significantly more experience than it, plus the fact that both were Poison-types, which gave them a type advantage over his bug-type status, and they had even managed to easily take out Ash's Pidgeotto, who at that time nearly made Caterpie its lunch thanks largely to Ash's stupidity earlier, and that's not even getting into how it was close to fainting by that point thanks to that earlier battle, and even without the Pidgeotto battle was weak enough that Ash didn't even need to battle it just to capture it. Note that I said "came far closer to", not actually WAS a disadvantageous situation, because ultimately Caterpie prevailed).''" | |||
::::::Again, a disadvantage is not an unwinnable situation, just a situation that is harder to win from. There's nothing wrong with saying that Starmie was at a disadvantage, since that's what was displayed and stated within the episode itself. | |||
::::::"''Hey, I tend to get very detailed in my replies. It's basically a quirk of mine due to both my aspergers and also my parents specifically demanding I get more detailed in my answers rather than saying "just because", "I felt like it", or even going extremely general about who "they" are when I say "people". As far as that big about Bulbapedia, Pokecommunity, and Serebii.net, usually it's just the same people who happen to be members of all three sites, and either way, just because three entities claim something doesn't necessarily make it true. '''Just ask the coverage about the Vietnam War by the major networks. All showed the worst aspects about Vietnam, yet it eventually came to light that all of them, especially the so-called "most trusted man in America" Walter Cronkite, were extremely biased against the war and in Cronkite's case may have even up and out lied through his teeth during the Tet offensive. A similar story can be shown with the Trayvon Martin case.'''''" | |||
::::::This is an ''extreme'' comparison. One person's conduct on the Internet in regards to a fictional character from an anime is not at all equivalent to '''war or murder'''. At the very least, it's undeniable that a lot of conflict that you've run into on these sites are related to Misty (honestly, I can just look at earlier posts on this very talk page even before this particular discussion started). It's one thing to claim that you're not being biased and another to actually showcase that you're not being biased. You even admitted earlier that you're "fanatically loyal to Misty". [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 22:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Pokémon == | == Pokémon == | ||
When writing "Pokémon" or "Poké", don't forget to write the "e" as "é". Also, the word "Trainer" is capitalized. --[[User:FinnishPokéFan92|FinnishPokéFan92]] ([[User talk:FinnishPokéFan92|talk]]) 00:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC) | When writing "Pokémon" or "Poké", don't forget to write the "e" as "é". Also, the word "Trainer" is capitalized. --[[User:FinnishPokéFan92|FinnishPokéFan92]] ([[User talk:FinnishPokéFan92|talk]]) 00:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC) | ||