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Undo revision 2990549 by Dr Lava (talk) We usually should not change content already in a talk page
== NHK Broadcast revealed scrapped Pokemon "Omega" and early Gyarados design. ==
Helix Chamber has confirmed it to be real as well;
https://twitter.com/benisboy/status/1075154504792731648 {{unsigned|Pichu Madman26}}
:Interesting. I'd say it's worth adding. That Gyarados looks really cool, by the way. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 18:14, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 
== Pokemon GS Beta and Pokemon Green Prototype Data ==
Okay, so the issue has been up for months now of whether the Pokemon GS Spaceworld demo is real. Various pieces of evidence have been brought up, from leftover assets to discoveries of 4 MissingNo, not only proving the existence of unseen beta Pokemon, but two of them matching suspiciously with Kotora and Raitora [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq971cWWzq8&t=15s]. Many things showed favor of this thing being legit, and nothing giving much against it, that is until, the Pokemon Green leaked assets. Due to being poorly presented, many took it as fake, and questioned the overall authenticity of Helix Chamber. But as of today, scans of a Famitsu magazine have been made public. Various concept arts and better quality images of sprites have been revealed. But what really drew my attention was this tweet [https://twitter.com/helixchamber/status/1126145212785594375]. If the proto assets were fake, how would the faker get these right? They had no way of knowing, unless it was made by someone at Pokemon, although that would only make it seem more authentic. This is definite evidence of the assets being real, poorly revealed, but real. Knowing this, even more authenticity is added to the Pokemon GS demo being real. This is because various baby Pokemon and the Kotora and Raitora line are found in the assets and are seen in the Spaceworld demo. I really think a decision needs to be made, because more and more evidence is piling up to the Spaceworld Demo and now the Proto-Green Assets, and more and more questions will rise if the staff at Bulbapedia don't put their foot down on what these are. I understand being wary to add info about the Proto-Green Assets, but Spaceworld has had months of waiting, just to be proven beyond reasonable doubt as real. At this point these should be declared on Bulbapedia as real, or as fake, and have that as Bulbapedia's final decision on the matter. [[User:LeapingRiolu|LeapingRiolu]] ([[User talk:LeapingRiolu|talk]]) 04:04, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:Helix Chamber wasn’t the one who released the Spaceworld rom, so the RG incident shouldn’t have affected its already proven without a doubt veracity. Unfortunately, for some people, it has. But yes, I agree. Both prototypes are 100% real. Frankly Spaceworld should have been added several months ago. I feel like Spaceworld also has enough information to warrant much more than just a few additions on this page, and should be expanded to its own pages. Let’s hope we get a full rom of an RG prototype someday, but for now it should go on this page and/or the Pokémon Red and Green beta page. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 11:42, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
::I don't think a small snippet from Famitsu, and one where we already know most of the information, proves that the RG leak is "100% real". Unless Famitsu or any other official/credible source releases more RG beta content, the RG leak could very well be 100% fake. As for spaceworld, still no official/credible source for that, so I'm still doubtful on that. Yes, it's highly unlikely we'll get official sources for it, and that's just too bad. But for things like beta content, we can really only trust the official sources and not some "leak" from some "anonymous" source.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 13:53, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:::A lot of the sprites from the Famitsu magazine and the RG asset leak are identical. Some of these sprites were never seen before. Unless whoever sent Helix Chamber has a time machine, this is impossible. Spaceworld has already been confirmed on multiple fronts to be real by experts, and was also confirmed by the RG assets. To be blunt, at this point, claiming either is fake is just denial. It’s hurting the integrity of the wiki to ignore such important information, quite honestly. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 18:50, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:::Oh, and in case more than trainer sprites were needed, which should prove it without a doubt, two names from the RG assets that AFAIK have not appeared before, Ichirou and Yuuichi, appeared in the Famitsu scan. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:07, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
::::There's a reason these things are anonymous. We have no idea how anyone would have gotten their hands on these pieces of Pokemon history. Pokemon has confirmed that they look back at old concepts and such for inspiration, so the only way I see it getting out is blatant theft. And if the person revealing the Beta and Assets did give their name, they'd more than likely lose their job and suffer legal consequences. [[User:LeapingRiolu|LeapingRiolu]] ([[User talk:LeapingRiolu|talk]]) 21:15, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
:::::Regardless of anonymity, both these leaks are real. And yes, I suppose that "it's highly unlikely we'll get official sources for it," but at this point, we shouldn't need Gamefreak to magically come down from the sky and spoonfeed us the truth. Anyone can tell from looking at these leaks, especially the RG assets, that they're real, without any room for doubt. Unless, again, Helix Chamber has a time travel machine. This is more than just a "small snippet"; this is cold, hard evidence that proves the veracity of both. Let's not let our personal opinions hurt Bulbapedia. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 18:33, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
::::::I have to agree, there's no doubt the leaks are legit by this point. Waiting for confirmation from official sources or Famitsu is asinine, game companies rarely if ever confirm the veracity on such leaks. It seems to me that this place is just inexperienced at dealing with beta leaks. The proof brought up already proves they're not fake; even The Cutting Room Floor, which ''does'' have experience at the subject of leaks, prototypes and scrapped content, has accepted them as legit. Stop being so headstrong in the face of proof. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 06:50, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 
== Admins -- is Gen 5 betamon info all rumors? ==
 
Hey admins, how are ya. I made this Bulbapedia account just to write this post.
 
 
I've got a YouTube channel that primarily focuses on beta Pokemon content, with an emphasis on having a source for everything. I'm working on Gen 5 now, and I was looking at Bulbapedia's unused Pokemon page. It seems that information regarding the beta of the Hydreigon family, Sawk, Throh, Tornadus, Thundurus, and Stunfisk is all credited to a Nintendo Dream interview with Ken Sugimori. But I've spent about 12 hours over the past couple days searching for that interview, or even a volume number that interview is meant to be contained in. I even googled around in Japanese. Couldn't find a thing. I asked my 22,000 subscribers for help, including some who are Japanese. No one could find anything. It seems Bulbapedia and many other sites have just been citing "a Nintendo Dream interview," and no one has been linking or citing a specific volume.
 
 
I'm thinking maybe it's meant to be volume 205, the May 2011 issue. But in that interview Sugimori only says that Hydreigon is based on the Yamata no Ochiri. I'm thinking all these quotes attributed to that Sugimori interview -- about dragon tanks, horned eyebrowless Oni, red Tornadus, and anglerfish Stunfisk -- probably don't exist, and that all Bulbapedia's Gen 5 betamon info is bunk -- all except Sawsbuck and Excadrill. I'd really like to be wrong though.
 
 
I tried combing through the page's history tab, but couldn't find where this information was added. I'm new to looking over the back-end of wikis though, so my apologies if I'm just overlooking something obvious. Please let me know, I'd really appreciate it.
 
 
Cheers admins,
 
Dr Lava {{unsigned|Dr Lava}}
:Ultra-ironic if true. -[[ArchdevilAntidote]]
::-[http://blog.livedoor.jp/shellspider/archives/696157.html#more]
::-[http://rpgland.com/2010/11/30/pokemon-black-and-white-scans-interview-in-nintendo-dream/]
::-[https://web.archive.org/web/20111119031953/http://pokemonblackandwhite.net/?p=4142]
::-[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=List_of_unused_Pok%C3%A9mon_and_character_designs&diff=1660923&oldid=1653669]
::-[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Talk:Hydreigon_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#Official_source._Hydreigon_is_based_on_a_Japanese_dragon.28YAMATA_NO_OROCHI.29.] (User Sawamular cites Nintendo Dream volume 205 as his source, he posted the same message on pokemon talk pages relevant to the Gen 5 beta)
::-[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w/index.php?title=Hydreigon_(Pok%C3%A9mon)&diff=prev&oldid=1448591]
::-[https://forums.serebii.net/threads/official-pokemon-discussion-thread.467053/page-459#post-12163722]
::--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 05:08, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 
{{indent}}Thanks ForceFire for the links, much appreciated. Of the 7 links you gave me as sources for the Gen 5 Pokemon's altered designs, one of them was in Japanese, one referred to the Nintendo Dream issue as being the February 2011 instead of May, #19 was just a user citing the May issue for the Yamata no Orochi quote but nothing else -- and well, I found the whole collection to be useful but still a little confusing and unclear. The most useful one was a non-ideal translation on page 459 of a Serebii forums thread, which is basically ungooglable. That said, I don't mean to come off as jerky here -- I know you're working with what you've got and I'm impressed you even had this much, and I appreciate your taking the time to provide me these links.
 
I think this particular Sugimori interview is probably the most important interview that deals with Gen 5 altered Pokemon designs, so I had the interview's Japanese transcript properly translated into English, and a Japanese friend was able to provide me with a picture of volume 205's page that has the information about Hydreigon, Sawk, Throh, and the Forces of Nature trio. '''I've compiled the original Japanese transcript, the English translation, pictures, and provided context for the interview, and added it all to my website in an easy-to-read article.''' I also included a special thanks section that thanks you ForceFire for providing valuable links, as well as to Shellspider, the original transcriber, and a link to the archive of his old blog. Several other folks who helped put it all together are thanked as well at the end of the interview's translation. Here's the link: http://lavacutcontent.com/ken-sugimori-nintendo-dream/
 
I hope that this link can serve as a more convenient, accessible, and accurate source for these "altered design" entries on the "unused Pokemon" page. Like I said, '''I think this particular Sugimori interview is really important, and information about it is incredibly difficult to find, even with Google. And I think it needs to be preserved and easy to access, particularly for folks who don't speak Japanese.''' Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to help me find this stuff ForceFire. Sorry if I formatted this post wrong -- I couldn't figure out how to make it a reply to your previous comment, so I just put it here. Cheers. -Dr Lava [[User:Dr Lava|Dr Lava]] ([[User talk:Dr Lava|talk]]) 11:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
:The other staff members also contributed in finding those links, I just relayed the information. A majority of those links all cite the same one source: Nintendo Dream. I've added the information into the altered Pokemon section, linking your site as a reference. I'll eventually get to adding the information to the individual articles.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 08:10, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 
== Another Nintendo Dream interview translation with Sugimori ==
 
I had another Ken Sugimori interview translated, this one from Nintendo Dream volume 204. Here's the link: http://lavacutcontent.com/ken-sugimori-nintendo-dream-2/
 
And here are the highlights as it relates to this "unused Pokemon" page:
 
"Petilil and Lilligant were originally meant as a three-stage evolutionary line."
 
"Stunfisk was born out of the designer’s desire to create the flattest Pokémon. At first he was modeled after a goosefish, was blue in color, and was dual-type Water and Electric, but during the balancing phase of development, his type was changed and he ended up resembling a flounder." This page currently states he was an angler fish. A goosefish is technically a type of angler fish, but I think most folks think of an angler fish as round, but a goosefish as flat. Idk, maybe that's just me.
 
"Originally Dwebble and Crustle’s shells were supposed to be made from kiln-fired pottery, which would have made them ‘Furnace Pokémon.’ But we ended up revising the shells and giving them sharper angles, because we thought the original designs looked slow and awkward."
 
About the Litwick family: "The original concept was to create a Pokémon family that starts as a flame, then a candle, and finally a lamp. But the idea that a flame evolved into a candle wasn’t really working, so we ended up switching the candle’s position to make it the family’s first form."
 
I talked to SnorlaxMonster on Twitter -- he told me there were a few of you guys in an admin group chat that scrounged up those links you sent me before. Very much appreciated. Cheers ForceFire. [[User:Dr Lava|Dr Lava]] ([[User talk:Dr Lava|talk]]) 19:19, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 
[June 19, 2019 edit]
 
I had the interview from Nintendo Dream volume 201 translated as well, here's the link: http://lavacutcontent.com/ken-sugimori-nintendo-dream-3/
 
The main highlight, at least as far as beta Pokemon, is the section about Karrablast and a scrapped snail Pokemon once meant as Karrablast and Escavalier's rival, or more likely a 2 stage family of snails.
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