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Talk:Pokémon Gold and Silver beta

27,193 bytes added, 13 August
Spaceworld Information: Moderators, please read this thread. We're well beyond a reasonable waiting time for this.
[[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 14:09, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
:So I guess nothing has happened, right? --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 01:43, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
{{indent}}There are pages currently in the works [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|here]], [[User:Abcboy/Pokémon Gold and Silver demo/Pokémon|here]], and [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld/Locations|here]]. these pages will make there way in the mainspace, they just need to be fleshed out. If anyone wants to add information about the spaceworld demo, feel free to add them to those userpages. Do not add them to the GS beta page or Unused design pages yet.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
:I'm sorry if I sound like a noob, but how can I edit those pages. They don't have the edit button anywhere. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 02:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
::On the top of the page, like all other article. You can edit them freely to add information, it's not protected.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:54, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
:::Weird, there's no edit button anywhere. I even used Ctrl+F to make sure I wasn't skipping anything. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 00:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
::::Oof yeah, I wanted to help out and add the attacks, but it seems that I don't have an edit button either. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 02:11, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
:::::Right, you're both new users. You have to be autoconfirmed to be able to edit the userspace. To be autoconfirmed, you have to make a certain amount of edits in the mainspace and be a user for some time.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 05:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
::::::Got it. I'll find something to do around here. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 21:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Rather than acting needlessly paranoid over the veracity of what was clearly a legit leak, you people should have looked at the article itself. It assumes that 1997_GS_Route_35.png is Route 35 and connects to National Park, presenting that speculation as a fact. And lo and behold, now that we have access to the prerelease demo, we can see that these assumptions were incorrect. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 22:05, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
:Uuh, you talk about it being speculation while using an anonymous, non confirmed by GF/Nintendo, leak. That's not much better... [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 23:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
::Ericss, please know that the information was most likely added back when Bulbapedia just started in 2005. Way before the leak surfaced. So obviously we couldn't fact check it since there was nothing to fact check it with.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:43, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
:::ExLight: The point is that people were getting so anal and paranoid over the legitimacy of the leak, yet the clearly baseless speculation in the article got a free pass all these years.
:::But regarding your comparison. A "non confirmed leak" (just like pretty much every leaked game prototype out there) of what is a clearly legitimate prototype ROM that anyone can verify with an emulator and whose veracity had been accepted by people who have experience at dealing with leaked protos, versus baseless speculation that was never officially confirmed yet was being passed off as fact by the article. Yes, I'll say the situations are rather different.
:::Force Fire: So? It was still unconfirmed speculation that the article treated as a fact. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 10:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
::::Everyone failed to recognize the erroneous information. It's done, and fixed now. There's no point to belaboring the issue. We can all try our best, but being perfect is very hard. If you're worried about other pages, feel free to check them yourself and ask about anything you find worrisome. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 12:51, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
== Spaceworld Implementation ==
Starting a new section because the last one has gotten quite long- I've been wondering if staff have any idea of how they would like to implement the demo Pokemon. I know some Pokemon that barely differed from their final design could just be added to the Pokemon's regular page as trivia, and that would probably be easier and make more sense than giving every demo Pokemon a separate beta page, but what about demo learnsets or even the base stat info? These differed for many Gen I and II Pokemon.
Also wondering if there's a better location to discuss the implementation of Spaceworld info than on this page. If there is, please direct me. =3 [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 13:05, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
:There is a page for {{DL|List of unused Pokémon and character designs|unused or altered designs}}. About the more in-depth stuff it doesn't seem to be too relevant since it never came to public. [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 15:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
::I would agree if this was Smogon, but I don't think Bulbapedia would be a very good resource on all things Pokemon if it neglected to include available information? It's an encyclopedia for Pokefans, not specifically gamers, and someone might find that information interesting and relevant. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 14:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I have compiled Spaceworld learnsets for all existing pokemon [[User:Yoriven/SpaceWorld/Learnsets|here]]. This is just in case it is decided to try to incorporate demo information into the existing pokemon's pages. I have learnsets for all of the scrapped pokemon filled out too, but am saving those for their page mockups.
I have also started to write what little information there is for some of the existing pokemon into trivia notes [[User:Yoriven/SpaceWorld|here]]. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 21:24, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I just came across this on 4chan, someone thinks the demo could actually have come after Spaceworld 1997's, but who knows for sure.:
Although, another person replied to it said it could be a build made shortly before Spaceworld 1997.:
And this person said this build 'could' be closer to theHobbyfair '98 build.:
Sorry for the link post and edits, I was surfing through the internet for any other things about this.
[[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 14:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
:::I was going to point out that the demo's intro screen could be seen in footage of the Spaceworld 97 event, but you were the one to post the image showing that earlier on this page so I guess I don't really have to tell you. XD
:::In any case- footage of the event matches the demo, whereas pre-event footage with the 1996 intro screen and older graphics seems more likely to be from a build given out for media coverage beforehand. As for the fan art from the event- they were drawn from memory after the artist's return home, and the comment next to ledyba even remarks something to the effect of "there was a ladybug pokemon but I don't really like ladybugs so" with the implication that it was probably not exactly right because they weren't personally interested in the design.
:::Here is some recent commentary from the artist, actually: [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 21:52, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
::::The Spaceworld Demo is going to be its own set of pages actually. We have several different articles across the site too. If anyone is able and wants to; they are more than welcome to help edit the articles and make them more complete. It is asked that everyone refrains from adding speculative comments though. Links below to the current work in progress pages:
:::::[[ | Beta Pokédex entries and Pokémon information]]
:::::[[ | Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld demo / beta]]
:::::[[ | Beta Pokémon information]]
::::Any help that can be given with completing these is welcome.~ ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 13:56, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
I hope I don't sound rude, but it's been well over six months since the public release of the Spaceworld demo, and all the chaos surrounding LGPE has passed. I believe it would be a grave mistake if we don't document this incredibly important piece of Pokémon history in the near future. I also believe that if we start mainspacing information on it little by little, such as [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld|a single page on one Pokémon]] or [[User:Frozen_Fennec/Pok%C3%A9mon_Gold_and_Silver_Spaceworld_Demo|a page summarizing the demo]], then it would spur more interest in adding more and more, and through the teamwork of the contributors of this website, we could very quickly have comprehensive information about the demo up. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:36, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
:I have pretty much given up unless Bulbapedia gives any indication that they desire the SpaceWorld articles to ever be mainspaced, but [[User:Yoriven/SpaceWorld/Learnsets2|here]] is the work that I had done awhile ago on the moveset tables for all pokemon who were left out of the final version of the game. Good luck to anyone who is still working hard on this, you're real troopers! [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 21:34, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
::Frozen Fennec and I have been working hard at [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|this page]]-- I have already sent it to an administrator who said they would pass it on to the others. The future is, in my terribly optimistic opinion, looking bright for Spaceworld information on BP. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 21:09, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
== Spaceworld Information ==
I've mentioned this before here, but I seriously think it would be in our best interest to start creating pages for the Pokemon Gold spaceworld demo in increments now, rather than all at once when it gets finished somewhere. It has been nearly nine months since the demo surfaced and its veracity has been more than proven.
I have made a few pages myself in my userspace, as have others such as Frozen Fennec, but I would rather not do all the workload of creating pages for every single Pokemon. Rather, I think that if we put up one or two pages, such as Honoguma or something, and a list of Pokemon, it would spur user interest in this incredibly valuable piece of Pokemon history, and we could quickly have a comprehensive database on the demo.
Personally I recommend mainspacing [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|Frozen Fennec's userpage]], and then under the Pokemon subsection, put a [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld/Dex|list of Pokemon with red links]], with [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld|one or two of the pages]] created.
Please feel free to reply with your input. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 16:44, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
:With the way Helix Chamber and its affiliates handled the alleged "RG leak", it sort of puts doubt on the spaceworld leak, at least in my opinion. If they have the time, effort, and ability to create fake front sprites for the "RG leak", whose to say they don't have the time, effort, and ability to fake the whole thing (that goes for both the "RG leak" and the spaceworld leak). I have always been, and am now 100%, against putting anything from the spaceworld leak on Bulbapedia. We were lucky to get the initial RG scoop last year because is was from an ''official source'', and now a couple month after that a "spaceworld leak" appears from some anonymous source (i.e. not official). It has always been suspicious in my eyes.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 06:06, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
::Putting fake sprites into a game, and even adding fake Pokémon to it, are fairly straightforward. Creating a whole game that is halfway between the Generation I and II games, which lead to discoveries of unused content in the Generation II games that nobody was previously aware of, is not. You can also read [ analyses] by experts like iiMarckus. Pulling off a fake like this would be virtually impossible. There is no doubt that the demo is real. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 07:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Yeah. Besides, the incident with RG was a completely unrelated one by different people; it shouldn’t affect the proven veracity of Spaceworld. It was probably just capitalizing upon it. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 14:21, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
:::With that in mind, I still maintain that information should start to be added from the Spaceworld demo, now that we've gotten its legitimacy out of the way. I believe that not documenting it on Bulbapedia would be neglecting a hugely important piece of Pokemon history, especially for how long it has been available for. I'd be more than willing to do some of the work, as I've already done quite a bit in my userspace. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
:I don't see how HC's "Capumon mockup hack" undermines the authenticity of the leaked Spaceworld ROM. That mockup ROM was actually very easy to identify as it is a simple hacked version of an English-language Yellow ROM. It can be identified right away as such and it is obvious that an actual leaked ROM wouldn't look like this (it wouldn't be based on Yellow, work on GBC and be in English). It wasn't even intended as something meant to trick people, more like some kind of fan imagination (it was their error to present it in such a way, creating all that confusion among the fans). The Spaceworld GS demo does not have such betraying features - it has all traits of an independent ROM base, something that would be very hard (if not impossible) to fake in a convincing way. Also, if we take that Helix Chamber are a bunch of scammers who dedicate their time to fabricating fake leaks, why did they never finish the announced translation patch for GS97? This just doesn't make sense. Face it, arguing that GS97 ROM is a hack is nothing more than a conspiracy theory at this moment. Also, to me it sounds like a notable thing for article ''even'' if it is a fake (we have articles on numerous fandom phenomena with much less impact than it). My advice about making the article on Spaceworld demo is that I would draw a clear line between the accessible material (since this is actually something that has been made public) and all that unfinished stuff that are not accessible without cheating/debugging. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] ([[User talk:Maxim|talk]]) 20:00, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
::That's a good call for that last part, I wouldn't have thought to do that. For individual Pokemon pages for Pokemon unavailable without debug mode, would it be best to put a statement like "This Pokemon is unavailable in the demo without the use of debug mode" or something similar? --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 20:06, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Any attempts to add anything about the spaceworld demo still needs approval from the editorial board. I've made my stance pretty clear on this.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
::::We know that. We’re just discussing. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 13:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::I'd encourage people to separate the information Helix Chamber received from the poorly-conceived and mismanaged way in which they chose to reveal it to the world. The source provided them with information in an extremely unhelpful manner (it's the digital equivalent of an amateur digging up an archeological site themselves and handing any artifacts they uncover to experts rather than allowing those experts to excavate and catalogue their findings scientifically) and they did what they could to verify its authenticity. [[User:ThomasWinwood|ThomasWinwood]] ([[User talk:ThomasWinwood|talk]]) 19:27, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
So we are now approaching the one year anniversary of the public debut of the Spaceworld demo rom. That’s one year we’ve gone without any of this information on the site. And I get it, in the early stages it wasn’t exactly confirmed if it was real or not, but we’ve known that it is for a while now. And I know how the processes work here for approving changes to the site, but frankly, this shouldn’t ''need'' such a process— to be blunt, it should just be common sense that something so important to the history of Pokémon be allowed to be added without any kind of hesitation. Hell, even Wikipedia— a non Pokémon focused wiki— has an {{wp|Unused Pokémon in the 1997 Pokémon Gold and Silver demo|article}} dedicated to it. The point is, we can’t continue to call ourselves a Pokémon encyclopedia if we are to deliberately ignore such crucial information. We’ve tiptoed around this for a long time. It’s time to make a decision. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 12:49, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
:The editorial board is still debating this? Has the number of irrefutable proof of the demo's authenticity posted by Celadonkey and others been presented to them? [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 05:22, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
::It has been presented but I doubt it's still being debated by mods, and honestly, I doubt it even has been to the extent to which you're picturing. Over the past year and a day (because, as of yesterday, the introduction of the ROM to the internet is a year old) it has been fruitlessly brought up probably more separate times that I can count on my hands. Personally, I've probably written enough about BP's treatment of the ROM both here and on the Discord to write a book, and I know others have too. But every time it is brought up it is largely ignored by people who, well, hold ANY power over the future of Bulbapedia. Either way, this is getting ridiculous.
::My view on BP is getting exponentially more cynical as it continues to ignore something so crucial. Come on, guys. It's been over a year now and a lot of us still have to implore to include Pokemon information on a Pokemon wiki. We're better than this, right? --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
:::I have to agree, this is ridiculous. This is about the only place on the web that refuses to acknowledge the demo's legitimacy. And even then, it seems to be mostly Bulbapedia's staff; people are tired of explaining that the demo has been proved legit, but it all seems to fall on deaf ears. How paranoid and (frankly speaking) clueless can the staff be regarding the subject? [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 12:22, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
::::Seems my page has been being looked at for about 2 weeks now if I recall correctly. celadonk and staff member abcboy have both helped a lot on it. I am hoping sometime in the next week or two it could be approved so more people can help add on to the page itself as well. While it has been roughly a year since it was confirmed and NO STAFF MEMBER is saying it is "not valid information" and such as you seem to be accusing them of. We always need to wait for them to move the pages to the mainspace which I do not have as much of an issue with. Probably going to try adding a bit more to it later today and seeing if I can ask a little more about mainspacing the article one more time. :) ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 13:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
:::::So the staff isn't debating its authenticity? Ah, my apologies to them then. I'm just frustrated that it has been over a year and it's still not covered by Bulbapedia, userspace aside. I think that's the longest we have gone on without adding widely known verified information. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 14:13, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
::::::Frozen Fennec, I hope I don't come across as rude, but there has actually been a staff member who has expressed their <s>unfounded</s> opinion that the Spaceworld demo is not valid information, although I will not say who. (It's pretty easy to find out.) And we've been waiting for a year and two days now. We've known it was real for most of that 367-day period. Honestly, I personally ''do'' have an issue with continuing to have to wait for really any fruitful acknowledgement or progress.
::::::I might try and work on some pages too but Bulbapedia is pretty low on the life priority list for me, especially as school comes to a close for the year. If I were to decide (which, to be clear, I'm not), I'd say that the article in your userspace is pretty much good enough to mainspace as a solid summary of the ROM, save for certain images that would need to be uploaded. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 22:13, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
The Pokedex format seen in the Spaceworld demo ROM can be seen at 10:33 of this video.:
[[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 14:28, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
:The more footage from Spaceworld 1997 that comes up and matches up perfectly with the the "fake Spaceworld leak", the sadder it becomes that some people are still in denial of its veracity. Aside from everything SnorlaxMonster, Maxim, and others pointed out previously, it'd be impossible for it to be fake unless the person who made the leak was actually at Spaceworld 1997 themselves and explored everything possible in the demo, recreated it perfectly 20+ years later, then added in a bunch of inaccessible fake data. It's conspiracy theory at this point. [[User:Poliwhirl|Poliwhirl]] ([[User talk:Poliwhirl|talk]]) 14:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
::At this point I doubt that there is anyone in denial apart from one nameless moderator. I think it's mostly just lack of discussion within the moderator team about how to implement it. I know that a few of the mods-- Spriteit and Abcboy come to mind-- have been pushing for action, so the issue at least isn't completely stagnant.
::Apart from that, I don't really understand what decision making needs to be done apart from the obvious "yes" to whether we should put information on it on the site-- it's undeniably real, as we've been over many many times, and much of the groundwork has already been done by both average users and moderators in their userspaces.
::It makes me wish that a) the mod team was less private/more transparent about important decisions that average members have been pushing for, such as this, and b) that average members had a little more say in what goes on here. That being said, I am very grateful to the two aforementioned mods for being very polite, cooperative, and transparent about this whole issue.
::In the meantime, there's a page [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|here]] that is basically ready to go.
::Idk if this is too optimistic or not, but hopefully if I come back in two or so years the all clear will have been given. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#00A1E9">cela</span><span style="color:#BF004F">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 16:40, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
I find it extremely odd that the Spaceworld information hasn't been implemented yet. It is borderline indisputable that this is real, there are far too many coincidences. Hell, I have further proof that it's real: the fact Tyranitar isn't in the demo. The MicroGroup Game Review Magazine specifically says that Tyranitar wasn't canon (as were none of the other designs), and this was released in April of 1997. The accurate translation only came to light after the demo's leak [ when Plague von Karma bought the magazine herself and had Obskyr look at it]. Tyranitar wasn't added in until after Spaceworld 1997, quite clearly. The rest not even being in the ROM furthers the evidence of this demo's legitimacy as well as a result of this. The person releasing this could not have known any of this without retranslating this magazine themselves. Why go through all that effort for such a hoax? --[[User:Pichu Madman26|Pichu Madman26]] ([[User talk:Pichu Madman26|talk]]) 03:50, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
:I don't think that's the best piece of evidence, but it shouldn't really matter, because we already are 100% sure it's real. The issue is that most of staff seems to be ignoring this completely.
:Other than that, I just want to bump this thread again. I rarely even use Bulbapedia anymore these days but it still disappoints me to see this still being pleaded for.
:If any mods are reading this, please at least let us know what's going on. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#00A1E9">cela</span><span style="color:#BF004F">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 18:36, 13 August 2019 (UTC)