Talk:Proton: Difference between revisions

Talk:Proton (view source)

Revision as of 02:31, 10 February 2017

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Pumpkinking0192

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 Alright, that's my two cents, now someone shoot me down. For some reason, it happens every time I try to bring an argument to the table on a talk page, no matter what wiki I'm on and no matter how much I've thought my argument through. XD [[User:Teamrocketspy621|Teamrocketspy621]] 22:55, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
-:I think it's obvious that the Executives originally weren't called Proton and Petrel, but it's probably simpler to leave things as they are, and list the Executives on Proton and Petrel's pages, and just assume that Game Freak meant for Pro. and Petrel to directly take those original Executive's places. [[User:Takoto|<span style="color:#2E0854"> - <b>Takoto</b></span>]] 23:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
+:I think it's obvious that the Executives originally weren't called Proton and Petrel or designed originally to be like them, but it's probably simpler to leave things as they are, and list the Executives on Proton and Petrel's pages, and just assume that Game Freak meant for Pro. and Petrel to directly take those original Executive's places. [[User:Takoto|<span style="color:#2E0854"> - <b>Takoto</b></span>]] 23:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
+::Exactly. Game Freak meant for Proton and Petrel to be those two Executives. BUT, the article words it as though they have ''always'' been Proton and Petrel, and I see that as more of a misconception, since they obviously weren't. [[User:Teamrocketspy621|Teamrocketspy621]] 18:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
+:::Names aren't everything. They're meant to be the same Executives. Why wouldn't they? Their existence doesn't retcon anything or even contradict with GSC, so why wouldn't we call them same characters? Sure, when they were creating GSC they had no idea that they'd give those generic Executives new designs and names. But why should we delete that just because they didn't intend it from the start? There were many things that weren't intended from the start. TMs weren't always intended to be CDs. GSC male wasn't always intended to be Ethan. But now they are. The only thing we should care is canon. Canonically, they're the same characters. Dismissing the canon facts because of some assumption "what Game Freak could be thinking eleven years ago" is idiotic. All that matters is what there IS, not what COULD BE. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 18:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
+:Just a question... how similar are Proton and Petrel's dialogue to the executives they replaced. Canonically speaking, a character's dialogue reveals the most about them in most cases. But I don't remember exactly... is their dialogue similar enough that they should be considered the same? Allowing for changes, of course, such as Petrel's Giovanni disguise (which I'm pretty sure is brand new). --[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 18:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
+---------
+::::Proton's lines in Radio Tower were changed completely because of the fact that the player has meet him in Slowpoke Well already. The "Team Rocket fortress" thing is gone. However, after the battle in Slowpoke Well he gives a very similar line to the final Grunt in the Well in GSC.
+*GSC: ''"Yeah, TEAM ROCKET was broken up three years ago. But we continued our activities underground. Now you can have fun watching us stir up trouble!''
+*HGSS: ''"Humph... Team Rocket was indeed broken up three years ago. But we continued our activities underground. A small obstacle like you won't be much of a problem for our mission. I advise you to be very afraid of what is to come!"''
+Petrel's lines are also changed in Mahogany Hideout because of him dressing as Giovanni and the part with Murkrow opening the door with voice was added (originally, Petrel's voice wasn't needed to open the door, just the password). However, he also says "I... I couldn't do a thing... GIOVANNI, please forgive me..." upon defeating, as in HGSS. Also, he DOES mention that the place the player met him in the Rocket Executive is supposed to be Giovanni's office in GSC as well! When the player battles him in Radio Tower, the dialogues are also very different. However, the text he says after battle is very similar to the original, just longer.
+*GSC: ''"We stashed the real DIRECTOR in the UNDERGROUND WAREHOUSE. It's at the far end of the UNDERGROUND. But I doubt you'll get that far."''
+*HGSS: ''"Listen carefully. We stashed the real Director in the underground warehouse. It's at the far end of the Goldenrod Tunnel. I am a nice guy. I will give you the Basement Key to get to the underground warehouse. Take it with gratitude!"
+Ariana's texts are practically the same as in GSC in Mahogany Hideout.
+*GSC: ''"Hold it right there! We can't have a brat like you on the loose. It's harmful to TEAM ROCKET's pride, you see. However strong you may be, you can't take both of us at the same time. Sorry, baby. Now get ready to be thrashed.Hey! Don't be so selfish. Spread the fun around. What? You had an accomplice? Where is your sense of honor? As the interim boss in place of GIOVANNI, I'll show you how wrong it is to meddle with TEAM ROCKET!"''
+*HGSS: ''"Hold it right there! We can't let a brat like you do as you please forever. It'll hurt Team Rocket's pride over and over again. Making it lessen, you see. ...So, it's time to finish you. However strong you may be, if the two of us fight at the same time, you'll have no chance of winning. Don't you agree? Hee hee hee! Sorry, baby. Now, get ready to be thrashed. What? You had an accomplice? Where is your sense of dignity? As interim boss in the place of Giovanni, I'll show you how wrong it is to meddle with Team Rocket!"''
+And a bit changed, but still similar in the Radio Tower.
+*GSC: ''"Remember me from the HIDEOUT in MAHOGANY TOWN? I lost then, but I won't this time."''
+*HGSS: ''Hey, you... Remember me from the hideout in Mahogany Town? This time... Hee hee hee. This time... it looks like you're really all alone. All alone... So it should be quite easy. Bring it! Let's finish this!"''
+Her dialogue after battle in HGSS makes the same sense as the one from GSC but is expanded and reworded.
+*GSC: ''"A brat like you won't appreciate the magnificence of TEAM ROCKET. That's too bad. I really admire your power."''
+*HGSS: ''"What a waste... not to use your strength to do bad things! Feh... People like you will never in a million years understand our brilliance! It's too bad... I've really come to respect your strength."''
+And, last but not least - Archer. His texts are practically the same, with only minor changes.
+*GSC: ''"Oh? You managed to get this far? You must be quite the trainer. We intend to take over this RADIO STATION and announce our comeback. That should bring our boss GIOVANNI back from his solo training. We are going to regain our former glory. I won't allow you to interfere with our plans."''
+*HGSS: ''"Oh? You managed to get this far...? You must be quite the Trainer. We intend to take over this Radio Tower and officially announce our comeback. That should bring our boss Giovanni back from his solitary training. We are going to regain our former glory... I will not allow you to interfere with our meticulous plans!"''
+*GSC (after battle): ''"How could this be? Our dreams have come to naught. I wasn't up to the task after all. Like GIOVANNI did before me, I will disband TEAM ROCKET here today. Farewell."''
+*HGSS: ''"How could this be...? Our dreams have come to naught. I was not up to the task after all. Like Giovanni has done before me, I will disband Team Rocket here today. Farewell..."''
+Keep in mind that many texts in HGSS were changed, especially those given by important characters. Executives's texts were expanded in order to expand their personalities, instead of giving the same texts from the time that they were characterless, designless, nameless drones. But there are similarities after all.
+[http://mltreq.alwaysdata.net/etc/crysdump.txt Tohjo Falls' Crystal Text Dump was my choice on the GSC texts.] --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] 19:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
+:Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to see. I think that's suitable evidence that they're the same characters. --[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 22:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
+== In Gen 2 ==
+Someone reverted without explanation my edit. However, it is clear from the positions of the the grunt and admin that they originally were two seperate persons and that Proton was not created or even thought of till Gen 4. [[User:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|RubyLeafGreenCrystal]] ([[User talk:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|talk]]) 21:08, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
+:The page already clearly states that they were separate characters in Generation II and then merged into one for Generation IV. Use CTRL+F to search for the paragraph containing the word "amalgamated." [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 00:26, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
+:: I understand. No intents on distuption or anything, I am not the best at wikis. But I thought it should be more clearly shown that Proton did not technically exist in gen 2 and that the admins were in fact created from scratch in gen 4, except for Archer and Ariana who are clearly expansions of single persons. [[User:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|RubyLeafGreenCrystal]] ([[User talk:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|talk]]) 01:36, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
+::: Also regarding my edits, the page may be fine but I always thought encyclopedias were open for improvement. As I said above, I had reasons to think that my edits were improvement. [[User:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|RubyLeafGreenCrystal]] ([[User talk:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|talk]]) 01:36, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
+::::Removing large tracts of text that have good reason to exist is not improvement, in my opinion. I believe the way the articles are currently worded is sufficient in getting across the difference between Generations 2 and 4. As a side note, the admins in Gen IV weren't created "from scratch" — their names and visual designs were newly designed, but barring the Slowpoke Well, every appearance of an admin in Gen IV corresponds to an admin in Gen II in the same place, with the same or nearly-the-same team. They're clearly intended to be newly expanded takes on old characters, much like the Magma/Aqua admins from RSE that were redesigned and given more clearly distinct personalities in ORAS. It's just tougher to see for the GSC admins because at that time, system limitations meant they used "EXECUTIVE" where other characters were given names. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 01:40, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
+:::::On second thought, I've slightly reworded the ledes of the three male Executives' articles so the situation is more prominent. I hope this is a good compromise. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 01:52, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
+::::::: I will leave things here, although I still do feel that Proton and Petrel were technically new characters in gen 4. The Magma/Aqua admins are a diffrent case. They have the same names and close roles. It should be noted, though, that the only diffrence is that the opposite genders act as counterparts as opposed to the samesex in the originals. Therefore, it would be incorrect to say that Shelly is battled in Mt Chimney, as Matt was the actual one battled in the original game. So here, it technically is wrong to say that Proton existed from gen 2 as an ordinnary grunt was at the slowpoke well whereas an admin at goldenrod. And there technically is not three but four admins as there also is no way to prove that the admin at Mahogany is the same as the on disguised as the director. And given that the dressing was added in the remakes not the originals it is doubtful if at the time they were meant to be the same. So, in conclusion, given that proton was actully two entirely diffrent persona in gen 2, it technically is incorrect to say that he existed from gen 2. However, I will let matters rest here, although I would like to know what you think of my suggestion. [[User:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|RubyLeafGreenCrystal]] ([[User talk:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|talk]]) 02:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
+::::::: On furthet note, although I did not notice it at first, the section right above this one shows that I am not the first to speak on this matter. [[User:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|RubyLeafGreenCrystal]] ([[User talk:RubyLeafGreenCrystal|talk]]) 02:17, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
+::::::::My personal opinion is that the unnamed Executive from the Goldenrod Radio Tower is enough of a basis for us to say Proton existed just as much as Petrel, Archer and Ariana — which is to say that although the name and visual appearance did not exist at that time, the character's role in the story and Pokémon team did. Given the prior consensus and the discussions further above on this talk page, my impression is that it seems that people probably would tend to agree with my assessment. But if you want an end-all be-all final answer, you could ask the {{bp|staff|Editorial Board}} to weigh in on the matter. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 02:31, 10 February 2017 (UTC)