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Talk:Pokémon Gold and Silver beta: Difference between revisions

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Talk:Pokémon Gold and Silver beta (view source)

Revision as of 18:36, 13 August 2019

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→‎Spaceworld Information: Moderators, please read this thread. We're well beyond a reasonable waiting time for this.
(→‎Spaceworld Information: Moderators, please read this thread. We're well beyond a reasonable waiting time for this.)
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:::::No need to apologize, Prog rocker, I think this is a discussion that is worthy of being had. This, if real, would be one of the biggest pieces of Pokémon history, and if fake, would be one of the most disappointing hoaxes of Pokémon history. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 02:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::No need to apologize, Prog rocker, I think this is a discussion that is worthy of being had. This, if real, would be one of the biggest pieces of Pokémon history, and if fake, would be one of the most disappointing hoaxes of Pokémon history. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 02:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::: First time making a comment, so I apologize if I do this incorrectly but- proto Porygon2's resemblance to Pon de Lion should not be considered evidence against the leak as proto Porygon2 also bares a strong resemblance to a LOT of lion-shaped baby toys. Pon de Lion is a cutesy four-legged lion with a donut mane, and proto Porygon2 is a cutesy two-legged lion showing off the graphical upgrade to spheres. Both are just a simplistic lion-based design that anyone could have thought up, so I do think that it's a likely coincidence. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 05:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::: First time making a comment, so I apologize if I do this incorrectly but- proto Porygon2's resemblance to Pon de Lion should not be considered evidence against the leak as proto Porygon2 also bares a strong resemblance to a LOT of lion-shaped baby toys. Pon de Lion is a cutesy four-legged lion with a donut mane, and proto Porygon2 is a cutesy two-legged lion showing off the graphical upgrade to spheres. Both are just a simplistic lion-based design that anyone could have thought up, so I do think that it can be passed off as coincidence. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 05:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 
@Nick15; The page being protected until July 1st is not a cue for anyone to add the information. That's just an estimated time to see if this gets proven real or fake by that date.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 06:22, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 
@Force Fire Interestingly, the title screen with the orange and black Ho-Oh sprite does show up in a screenshot at the SpaceWorld '97 off-screen, but it's too far away to make out at first glance, but you can see the orange and black sprite if you zoom in on the image on one ofthe screens, it was posted on the Beta Resetera thread.:
 
https://tcrf.net/images/0/06/Playable_silverSW97.png [[User:Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11]]
 
The guy who first started disassembling Pokemon games has written an article with some evidence that they are real prototypes: https://iimarckus.org/spaceworld/  --[[User:Dorsal Axe|Dorsal Axe]] ([[User talk:Dorsal Axe|talk]]) 20:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 
:I guess there's a orange and black smudge there? I don't think it's possible to compare it to the 1996 promo nor to the 'leaked' demo.
:iimarckus's account proves nothing. The details of the demo could've been read beforehand and the animations and stuff could've been copied and edited from the original Gold/Silver ergo having such similarities. [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 03:34, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
::This just in, random Bulbapedia editor knows more about the inner workings of a rom that is neither a Red Version hack or a Gold Version hack than a person responsible for disassemblies. Expert analysis means nothing because jimbob didn't get confirmation from daddy nintendo that the sky is blue. [[User:Fishman|Fishman]] ([[User talk:Fishman|talk]]) 01:45, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
::Absolutely, any matching details could easily be attributed to the fact that all of this information is public on the Internet, and that any dedicated hoaxer could have copied every detail. However, I think it's worth mentioning that that image did not exist on the Internet until after the demo was leaked, as Google reverse image search shows.
 
::Right now, I think the link that I and Dorsal Axe posted is the best piece of evidence that we have so far. Hopefully more is revealed through time. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 03:39, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 
:::The image above? The Black and orange sprite is pretty much unrecognizable. This ain't exactly a high-res camera. As I said, we can't really see if it is the 1996 prototype sprite (which would prove the leak to be fake) or the one from the leak (which could prove the leak to be true)...
::: [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 04:05, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
@ExLight I zoomed in to the spot I'm talking about to try to get a better look, and took a screenshot of it to get a better look at the sprite, sorry that it's low-res, hope it looks a little more clearer to you. The '2' is missing from the logo, just like on the ROM.:
 
http://prntscr.com/jsloxe
 
And I found this 'gif' on 4chan, someone compared the ROM's 'Route 1' with the image's
Route 1.:
 
https://archive-media-0.nyafuu.org/vp/image/1528/37/1528376630486.gif
 
I do take the entire ROM with a bucket of salt, but it has been an interesting ride, even though I'm on 'Team Real' currently. I think the 1996 build was an earlier build, though, some of the locations in the ROM were present in magazine scans, such as the town with the tower, which had a window on its doors in the scan, and in the ROM, it's just regular wooden doors. My belief in the ROM is merely just an opinion, you may agree or disagree, even it is a clever fake if proven so in the end. [[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 16:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
:Very interesting find. Even in that low quality image it's clear that the trees/fences/grass match up.
 
:The one thing that doesn't though, is this blob here:
 
:https://i.imgur.com/Z5qIL7O.png
 
:However, when I checked the actual game to see what goes on there, there's a trainer who wanders around there, and sure enough, he stood in that spot. Seems to check out to me. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 17:41, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 
at this point we're in full desperate denial mode, huh? literally every piece of evidence, even stuff people more or less didn't scrutinize at all or completely missed prior to the proto going public is being ignored because "w-well they could have just made it up based on this photo and not the other way around so it doesn't count!!" give it up and get in touch with reality. there is no rational reason to plug your ears and shout at this point, and that's about all it can be characterized as. the earth isn't flat. [[User:Fishman|Fishman]] ([[User talk:Fishman|talk]]) 01:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
:No need to be so aggressive... Bulbapedia's stance is to wait until concrete evidence surfaces, which is a far cry from "desperate denial mode", and even then they discuss it, which takes time. Be patient. If it is true then it will likely be added to the site within a month or so.
 
:If there is a possibility that the people who leaked the demo "could have just made it up based on this photo" as you say in your portrayal of Bulbapedia, even a slight possibility, then staff will decide not to put it up. That's how it works here, you don't have to like it, but there's not much you can do to change it It really isn't worth insulting other editors over..
 
:I do believe that the ROM is real, but I also appreciate the need to confirm everything 100%. Even if that means, God forbid, we have to wait more than a week or two for information to be put up. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 01:57, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 
::There will literally never be magical, Nintendo-sourced statements to "100%" confirm that this is real. Expecting that is stupid. At this point, trying to claim that this romhack with hundreds of completely original sprites that anyone with functioning eyes can tell are a bridge between the first and second generation art styles (particularly with gen 1 pokemon) is fake makes about as much sense as claiming that anything we treated as fact before the Spaceworld Proto leaked is fake. There's plenty on this very article that's unsourced that I could just as easily claim are fake just because I don't like them. After all, photoshop exists so anything that doesn't get a press release confirming the legitimacy of is fake. Videos are fake too. Entire games are fake. Reality is fake. [[User:Fishman|Fishman]] ([[User talk:Fishman|talk]]) 02:11, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
:::Nobody is saying that these leaks are 100% fake. We're just saying we're not 100% sure yet. Yes Occam's razor says the leak is real but until hard concrete evidence comes out that are undisprovable without any doubt then we can't say it's 100% real yet. There isn't yet that has come out, so therefore, we can't put it up yet. Anyways, saying that we can't undoubtedly prove the veracity of these leaks (which != saying they're fake) is a whole nother world from saying that videos, entire games, and reality is fake, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that.
 
:::If you want to help prove these leaks real so they do get onto the wiki officially, then you should probably be a bit less harsh, chill out a bit, and help out with us instead. And again, it's only been a little more than a week, expecting something this huge to be up so quickly is asking for a little much. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 02:29, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 
:The level of scientific absurdity reached in this page has gone too far. Even if the leaked ROMs aren't real prototypes, the level of magnitude they got in the social media is too big to simply hide them as if they never existed. I suppose this kind of wiki was made to compile relevant information about Pokémon, so if the ROMs have spread worldwide and almost everybody knows about them, they really deserve a place here. Science is not perfect, it's based on evidences and we make new discoveries everyday, so it's completely normal that we change our minds and end up modifying things (physics, paleontology, medicine, all is open to interpretation and changes). Not adding the leaked ROMs information won't prove you're smarter or correct, but reflect you think you're infallible, and trust me, that's impossible for us. It's not even necessary to add a reference of the leaked ROMs as an immovable truth or the truly lost prototypes, just add them and add a sticky on the top reflecting what they are: leaked ROMs which possibly are the lost prototypes everyone is talking about and had an enormous impact in the fans of the franchise. Is it that hard?  Think about it, for example, we have references to the Electric Soldier Porygon incident, we have suppositions about where the Pokémon names could come from and we have even a section dedicated to ROM hacks. You'll end up adding this new information, even if it's all a scam, it's part of Pokémon franchise story, so please, stop being so elitist and open your minds. --[[User:Micael Alighieri|Micael Alighieri]] 13:27, 9 June 2018
 
::A couple of things everyone coming here to be rude seems to be missing:
:::1. On their twitter account, the bulbapedia webmasters have stated they are waiting a full month before adding anything (more or less to give people time to do all the research on the demo itself and to avoid any possible legal trouble that might come anyone's way from this demo.)
:::2. While an official confirmation would be delightful, nothing is going to be added until after this month; ultimately, whether or not Spaceworld demo stuff gets added sooner or later is up to the webmasters and Editor-In-Chief to decide.
:::3. NO ONE is saying this is a rom hack or fake, it's merely speculation that people who have not been to this wiki keep thinking that the whole wiki is thinking. I have seen a comment or two at first wondering if it was real or not but the more info that comes out, the less people are even debating the validity (most users here have come to the conclusion it is very much real but as point 1 states, everyone still needs to wait it out til July).
::On that note, I do not see why people are getting so upset that this demo is not being added to the wiki immediately. Even with past betas and demos, they almost rarely were ever added right away, I have to agree with the staff and do not see much reason to change the way they wait out to add certain content. No webmaster or admin here is trying to be smug and act like we are better than everyone else, that's just a very misleading opinion from those who do not come here often. So please refrain from getting hostile towards the wiki while we all wait for the final choice of the Webmasters and Editor-In-Chief, thank you. ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 11:36, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 
@Frozen Fennec Agreed, people who are acting this level of rudeness need to calm down, and let the staff decide what to do, all I did was provide some images to help provide evidence, which can be seen above, two screenshots, one of them being a zoomed in version to show a blurry tile screen, and s gif comparing a Route to the one in the ROM. It's disappointing to see people acting rude and nasty to the staff when they haven't reached a decision yet. [[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 12:47, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 
:So, what you're saying is if Nintendo were to be catastrophically stupid enough to pursue LEGAL ACTION against people for making a prototype public, Bulbapedia is willing to match that stupidity and refuse to cover or publish anything found in that prototype? There is literally no reason to pretend this doesn't exist. It's only going to get more embarrassing the longer people insist on keeping their heads in the sand. A wiki isn't a book you have to drag your feet on finishing until the dust settles because you only get one chance to do it. Congratulations on the decision to waste the fact that Bulbapedia is a wiki. We're paralyzed for a month in fear because we wouldn't want to put anything on Bulbapedia that isn't 100% correct. But those Trivia sections, man? Those are perfection. Just vomit random speculation and coincidences into those and press Save. [[User:Fishman|Fishman]] ([[User talk:Fishman|talk]]) 20:30, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
::Fishman, Nintendo [https://www.giantbomb.com/pokemon-blackwhite/3030-30613/forums/websites-hit-with-copyright-infringement-notices-448310/ has pursued legal action over this kind of thing in the past], first of all. Legal action against sites that publish information, such as Serebii. It's really not worth risking.
 
::Besides, the point is that the staff decided to wait because we want to prevent any speculation. Waiting for the dust to settle, you know? If we just let people edit immediately, then what will likely happen is people who are so excited by the reveal will edit whatever information in that they see online before we know if it's correct. That would be a lot of work to edit out, and we want to prevent that kind of deal whenever possible. If we wait a month we will likely know the full details of the demo as well, which we aren't completely sure we do at the moment. Stuff is still being discovered at the moment, such as how to get into caves and ruins with no warp data. It's only been nine days since the alleged demo has been leaked.
 
::We also are still continuing to find more and more information proving the veracity of these leaks. Do we have enough evidence right now? I have no idea, honestly. In my opinion, yes, but it could be argued that there's nothing concrete right now. And even if there was, it's gonna take at least a week for staff to decide whether it should be treated as real or not. Expecting it this soon is asking for a lot. Bulbapedia is arguably the most influential Pokémon fansite out there so we really do need to take the possibility, even a very very very slim one, that it ''could'' be fake extremely seriously. If we do put the information up and it turns out to be fake, simply removing it won't repair the possible influence that the existence of the information on the site had.
 
::And even if there is 100%, inarguable evidence, and even if it had been a year since that information was discovered— which is very far from the situation we're in right now— there is still absolutely no reason to be rude to fellow editors, to staff members, and to the site itself. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 21:00, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 
{{indent}}Protip all around! The complaining, and answering the complaining, isn't really doing anything except making the section longer. If people want to complain further, please leave it be. We'll all live. Anything that could be said in this vein mostly has been, and complainers gonna complain.
 
We continue to welcome constructive discussion of the subject of the leak (as opposed to simple frustration). Thanks! [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 21:23, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
:Since I am a bit worried that this is turning into another Diancie/Hoopa/Volcanion issue, I think that there needs to be a step taken back on the discussion.  Regarding everyone saying that it is a fake or that it is real, I would like to enquire about the July 1st date.  What happens if not enough evidence of it being a fake or a real prototype comes out prior to that date?  Does it get a separate article stating that it is neither, does the deadline get pushed back, or does a third action occur?  In addition, is there a location to post what we believe is evidence for or against this program being the Spaceworld 97 prototype or should such evidence be posted here?  --[[User:Super goku|Super goku]] ([[User talk:Super goku|talk]]) 21:59, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
@Tiddywinks Well said, I provided some screenshots an a gif above as potential evidence to help give more evidence of the ROM being real, albeit, the stuff is low-res, unfortunately. [[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 23:16, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
:Well, I don't know Japanese, but you can ask me if I see anything. Just want to know how I can help. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 03:03, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 
@Tiddlywinks Helix Chamber enhanced this old '97 pictures, provided by dmrn28 from Twitter, who provided the sketches of the '97 Pokemon, andf enhanced it, and Ho-oh is in the same position as the sprite on the 1997 beta demo title screen.:
 
https://twitter.com/helixchamber/status/1010220554010480640
 
[[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 14:09, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
:So I guess nothing has happened, right? --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 01:43, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
 
{{indent}}There are pages currently in the works [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|here]], [[User:Abcboy/Pokémon Gold and Silver demo/Pokémon|here]], and [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld/Locations|here]]. these pages will make there way in the mainspace, they just need to be fleshed out. If anyone wants to add information about the spaceworld demo, feel free to add them to those userpages. Do not add them to the GS beta page or Unused design pages yet.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
:I'm sorry if I sound like a noob, but how can I edit those pages. They don't have the edit button anywhere. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 02:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
::On the top of the page, like all other article. You can edit them freely to add information, it's not protected.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:54, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
:::Weird, there's no edit button anywhere. I even used Ctrl+F to make sure I wasn't skipping anything. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 00:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
::::Oof yeah, I wanted to help out and add the attacks, but it seems that I don't have an edit button either. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 02:11, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
:::::Right, you're both new users. You have to be autoconfirmed to be able to edit the userspace. To be autoconfirmed, you have to make a certain amount of edits in the mainspace and be a user for some time.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 05:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
::::::Got it. I'll find something to do around here. --[[User:Prog rocker|Prog rocker]] ([[User talk:Prog rocker|talk]]) 21:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 
Rather than acting needlessly paranoid over the veracity of what was clearly a legit leak, you people should have looked at the article itself. It assumes that 1997_GS_Route_35.png is Route 35 and connects to National Park, presenting that speculation as a fact. And lo and behold, now that we have access to the prerelease demo, we can see that these assumptions were incorrect. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 22:05, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 
:Uuh, you talk about it being speculation while using an anonymous, non confirmed by GF/Nintendo, leak. That's not much better... [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 23:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
::Ericss, please know that the information was most likely added back when Bulbapedia just started in 2005. Way before the leak surfaced. So obviously we couldn't fact check it since there was nothing to fact check it with.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:43, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
:::ExLight: The point is that people were getting so anal and paranoid over the legitimacy of the leak, yet the clearly baseless speculation in the article got a free pass all these years.
:::But regarding your comparison. A "non confirmed leak" (just like pretty much every leaked game prototype out there) of what is a clearly legitimate prototype ROM that anyone can verify with an emulator and whose veracity had been accepted by people who have experience at dealing with leaked protos, versus baseless speculation that was never officially confirmed yet was being passed off as fact by the article. Yes, I'll say the situations are rather different.
:::Force Fire: So? It was still unconfirmed speculation that the article treated as a fact. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 10:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
::::Everyone failed to recognize the erroneous information. It's done, and fixed now. There's no point to belaboring the issue. We can all try our best, but being perfect is very hard. If you're worried about other pages, feel free to check them yourself and ask about anything you find worrisome. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 12:51, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 
== Spaceworld Implementation ==
 
Starting a new section because the last one has gotten quite long- I've been wondering if staff have any idea of how they would like to implement the demo Pokemon. I know some Pokemon that barely differed from their final design could just be added to the Pokemon's regular page as trivia, and that would probably be easier and make more sense than giving every demo Pokemon a separate beta page, but what about demo learnsets or even the base stat info? These differed for many Gen I and II Pokemon.
 
Also wondering if there's a better location to discuss the implementation of Spaceworld info than on this page. If there is, please direct me. =3 [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 13:05, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 
:There is a page for {{DL|List of unused Pokémon and character designs|unused or altered designs}}. About the more in-depth stuff it doesn't seem to be too relevant since it never came to public. [[User:ExLight|ExLight]] ([[User talk:ExLight|talk]]) 15:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
::I would agree if this was Smogon, but I don't think Bulbapedia would be a very good resource on all things Pokemon if it neglected to include available information? It's an encyclopedia for Pokefans, not specifically gamers, and someone might find that information interesting and relevant. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 14:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 
I have compiled Spaceworld learnsets for all existing pokemon [[User:Yoriven/SpaceWorld/Learnsets|here]]. This is just in case it is decided to try to incorporate demo information into the existing pokemon's pages. I have learnsets for all of the scrapped pokemon filled out too, but am saving those for their page mockups.
 
I have also started to write what little information there is for some of the existing pokemon into trivia notes [[User:Yoriven/SpaceWorld|here]]. [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 21:24, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 
I just came across this on 4chan, someone thinks the demo could actually have come after Spaceworld 1997's, but who knows for sure.:
 
http://prntscr.com/l8ml64
 
Although, another person replied to it said it could be a build made shortly before Spaceworld 1997.:
 
http://prntscr.com/l8mm54
 
 
And this person said this build 'could' be closer to theHobbyfair '98 build.: http://prntscr.com/l8p4wr
 
Sorry for the link post and edits, I was surfing through the internet for any other things about this.
[[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 14:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
:::I was going to point out that the demo's intro screen could be seen in footage of the Spaceworld 97 event, but you were the one to post the image showing that earlier on this page so I guess I don't really have to tell you. XD
 
:::In any case- footage of the event matches the demo, whereas pre-event footage with the 1996 intro screen and older graphics seems more likely to be from a build given out for media coverage beforehand. As for the fan art from the event- they were drawn from memory after the artist's return home, and the comment next to ledyba even remarks something to the effect of "there was a ladybug pokemon but I don't really like ladybugs so" with the implication that it was probably not exactly right because they weren't personally interested in the design.
 
:::Here is some recent commentary from the artist, actually: https://twitter.com/dmrn28/status/1006084888712208384 [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 21:52, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
::::The Spaceworld Demo is going to be its own set of pages actually. We have several different articles across the site too. If anyone is able and wants to; they are more than welcome to help edit the articles and make them more complete. It is asked that everyone refrains from adding speculative comments though. Links below to the current work in progress pages:
:::::[[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld | Beta Pokédex entries and Pokémon information]]
:::::[[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/User:Frozen_Fennec/Pok%C3%A9mon_Gold_and_Silver_Spaceworld_Demo | Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld demo / beta]]
:::::[[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/User:Abcboy/Pok%C3%A9mon_Gold_and_Silver_demo/Pok%C3%A9mon | Beta Pokémon information]]
::::Any help that can be given with completing these is welcome.~ ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 13:56, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
I hope I don't sound rude, but it's been well over six months since the public release of the Spaceworld demo, and all the chaos surrounding LGPE has passed. I believe it would be a grave mistake if we don't document this incredibly important piece of Pokémon history in the near future. I also believe that if we start mainspacing information on it little by little, such as [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld|a single page on one Pokémon]] or [[User:Frozen_Fennec/Pok%C3%A9mon_Gold_and_Silver_Spaceworld_Demo|a page summarizing the demo]], then it would spur more interest in adding more and more, and through the teamwork of the contributors of this website, we could very quickly have comprehensive information about the demo up. --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:36, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
:I have pretty much given up unless Bulbapedia gives any indication that they desire the SpaceWorld articles to ever be mainspaced, but [[User:Yoriven/SpaceWorld/Learnsets2|here]] is the work that I had done awhile ago on the moveset tables for all pokemon who were left out of the final version of the game. Good luck to anyone who is still working hard on this, you're real troopers! [[User:Yoriven|Yoriven]] ([[User talk:Yoriven|talk]]) 21:34, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
::Frozen Fennec and I have been working hard at [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|this page]]-- I have already sent it to an administrator who said they would pass it on to the others. The future is, in my terribly optimistic opinion, looking bright for Spaceworld information on BP. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 21:09, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 
== Spaceworld Information ==
 
I've mentioned this before here, but I seriously think it would be in our best interest to start creating pages for the Pokemon Gold spaceworld demo in increments now, rather than all at once when it gets finished somewhere. It has been nearly nine months since the demo surfaced and its veracity has been more than proven.
 
I have made a few pages myself in my userspace, as have others such as Frozen Fennec, but I would rather not do all the workload of creating pages for every single Pokemon. Rather, I think that if we put up one or two pages, such as Honoguma or something, and a list of Pokemon, it would spur user interest in this incredibly valuable piece of Pokemon history, and we could quickly have a comprehensive database on the demo.
 
Personally I recommend mainspacing [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|Frozen Fennec's userpage]], and then under the Pokemon subsection, put a [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld/Dex|list of Pokemon with red links]], with [[User:Celadonkey/Spaceworld|one or two of the pages]] created.
 
Please feel free to reply with your input. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 16:44, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
:With the way Helix Chamber and its affiliates handled the alleged "RG leak", it sort of puts doubt on the spaceworld leak, at least in my opinion. If they have the time, effort, and ability to create fake front sprites for the "RG leak", whose to say they don't have the time, effort, and ability to fake the whole thing (that goes for both the "RG leak" and the spaceworld leak). I have always been, and am now 100%, against putting anything from the spaceworld leak on Bulbapedia. We were lucky to get the initial RG scoop last year because is was from an ''official source'', and now a couple month after that a "spaceworld leak" appears from some anonymous source (i.e. not official). It has always been suspicious in my eyes.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 06:06, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
::Putting fake sprites into a game, and even adding fake Pokémon to it, are fairly straightforward. Creating a whole game that is halfway between the Generation I and II games, which lead to discoveries of unused content in the Generation II games that nobody was previously aware of, is not. You can also read [https://iimarckus.org/spaceworld/ analyses] by experts like iiMarckus. Pulling off a fake like this would be virtually impossible. There is no doubt that the demo is real. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 07:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Yeah. Besides, the incident with RG was a completely unrelated one by different people; it shouldn’t affect the proven veracity of Spaceworld. It was probably just capitalizing upon it. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 14:21, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
:::With that in mind, I still maintain that information should start to be added from the Spaceworld demo, now that we've gotten its legitimacy out of the way. I believe that not documenting it on Bulbapedia would be neglecting a hugely important piece of Pokemon history, especially for how long it has been available for. I'd be more than willing to do some of the work, as I've already done quite a bit in my userspace. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
:I don't see how HC's "Capumon mockup hack" undermines the authenticity of the leaked Spaceworld ROM. That mockup ROM was actually very easy to identify as it is a simple hacked version of an English-language Yellow ROM. It can be identified right away as such and it is obvious that an actual leaked ROM wouldn't look like this (it wouldn't be based on Yellow, work on GBC and be in English). It wasn't even intended as something meant to trick people, more like some kind of fan imagination (it was their error to present it in such a way, creating all that confusion among the fans). The Spaceworld GS demo does not have such betraying features - it has all traits of an independent ROM base, something that would be very hard (if not impossible) to fake in a convincing way. Also, if we take that Helix Chamber are a bunch of scammers who dedicate their time to fabricating fake leaks, why did they never finish the announced translation patch for GS97? This just doesn't make sense. Face it, arguing that GS97 ROM is a hack is nothing more than a conspiracy theory at this moment. Also, to me it sounds like a notable thing for article ''even'' if it is a fake (we have articles on numerous fandom phenomena with much less impact than it). My advice about making the article on Spaceworld demo is that I would draw a clear line between the accessible material (since this is actually something that has been made public) and all that unfinished stuff that are not accessible without cheating/debugging. --[[User:Maxim|Maxim]] ([[User talk:Maxim|talk]]) 20:00, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
::That's a good call for that last part, I wouldn't have thought to do that. For individual Pokemon pages for Pokemon unavailable without debug mode, would it be best to put a statement like "This Pokemon is unavailable in the demo without the use of debug mode" or something similar? --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 20:06, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Any attempts to add anything about the spaceworld demo still needs approval from the editorial board. I've made my stance pretty clear on this.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EBC600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#EBC600">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#D8B600">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D8B600">ire</span>]] 03:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
::::We know that. We’re just discussing. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 13:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::I'd encourage people to separate the information Helix Chamber received from the poorly-conceived and mismanaged way in which they chose to reveal it to the world. The source provided them with information in an extremely unhelpful manner (it's the digital equivalent of an amateur digging up an archeological site themselves and handing any artifacts they uncover to experts rather than allowing those experts to excavate and catalogue their findings scientifically) and they did what they could to verify its authenticity. [[User:ThomasWinwood|ThomasWinwood]] ([[User talk:ThomasWinwood|talk]]) 19:27, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
So we are now approaching the one year anniversary of the public debut of the Spaceworld demo rom. That’s one year we’ve gone without any of this information on the site. And I get it, in the early stages it wasn’t exactly confirmed if it was real or not, but we’ve known that it is for a while now. And I know how the processes work here for approving changes to the site, but frankly, this shouldn’t ''need'' such a process— to be blunt, it should just be common sense that something so important to the history of Pokémon be allowed to be added without any kind of hesitation. Hell, even Wikipedia— a non Pokémon focused wiki— has an {{wp|Unused Pokémon in the 1997 Pokémon Gold and Silver demo|article}} dedicated to it. The point is, we can’t continue to call ourselves a Pokémon encyclopedia if we are to deliberately ignore such crucial information. We’ve tiptoed around this for a long time. It’s time to make a decision. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 12:49, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
:The editorial board is still debating this? Has the number of irrefutable proof of the demo's authenticity posted by Celadonkey and others been presented to them? [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 05:22, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
::It has been presented but I doubt it's still being debated by mods, and honestly, I doubt it even has been to the extent to which you're picturing. Over the past year and a day (because, as of yesterday, the introduction of the ROM to the internet is a year old) it has been fruitlessly brought up probably more separate times that I can count on my hands. Personally, I've probably written enough about BP's treatment of the ROM both here and on the Discord to write a book, and I know others have too. But every time it is brought up it is largely ignored by people who, well, hold ANY power over the future of Bulbapedia. Either way, this is getting ridiculous.
 
::My view on BP is getting exponentially more cynical as it continues to ignore something so crucial. Come on, guys. It's been over a year now and a lot of us still have to implore to include Pokemon information on a Pokemon wiki. We're better than this, right? --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 19:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 
:::I have to agree, this is ridiculous. This is about the only place on the web that refuses to acknowledge the demo's legitimacy. And even then, it seems to be mostly Bulbapedia's staff; people are tired of explaining that the demo has been proved legit, but it all seems to fall on deaf ears. How paranoid and (frankly speaking) clueless can the staff be regarding the subject? [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 12:22, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
::::Seems my page has been being looked at for about 2 weeks now if I recall correctly. celadonk and staff member abcboy have both helped a lot on it. I am hoping sometime in the next week or two it could be approved so more people can help add on to the page itself as well. While it has been roughly a year since it was confirmed and NO STAFF MEMBER is saying it is "not valid information" and such as you seem to be accusing them of. We always need to wait for them to move the pages to the mainspace which I do not have as much of an issue with. Probably going to try adding a bit more to it later today and seeing if I can ask a little more about mainspacing the article one more time. :) ''[[User:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:teal">Frozen</span>]] [[User talk:Frozen Fennec|<span style="color:green">Fennec</span>]]'' 13:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
:::::So the staff isn't debating its authenticity? Ah, my apologies to them then. I'm just frustrated that it has been over a year and it's still not covered by Bulbapedia, userspace aside. I think that's the longest we have gone on without adding widely known verified information. [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 14:13, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
::::::Frozen Fennec, I hope I don't come across as rude, but there has actually been a staff member who has expressed their <s>unfounded</s> opinion that the Spaceworld demo is not valid information, although I will not say who. (It's pretty easy to find out.) And we've been waiting for a year and two days now. We've known it was real for most of that 367-day period. Honestly, I personally ''do'' have an issue with continuing to have to wait for really any fruitful acknowledgement or progress.
 
::::::I might try and work on some pages too but Bulbapedia is pretty low on the life priority list for me, especially as school comes to a close for the year. If I were to decide (which, to be clear, I'm not), I'd say that the article in your userspace is pretty much good enough to mainspace as a solid summary of the ROM, save for certain images that would need to be uploaded. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#004EA2">cela</span><span style="color:#B60007">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 22:13, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 
The Pokedex format seen in the Spaceworld demo ROM can be seen at 10:33 of this video.:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFSFouk-iqc&feature=youtu.be 
 
 
[[User:Tyler11|Tyler11]] ([[User talk:Tyler11|talk]]) 14:28, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
:The more footage from Spaceworld 1997 that comes up and matches up perfectly with the the "fake Spaceworld leak", the sadder it becomes that some people are still in denial of its veracity. Aside from everything SnorlaxMonster, Maxim, and others pointed out previously, it'd be impossible for it to be fake unless the person who made the leak was actually at Spaceworld 1997 themselves and explored everything possible in the demo, recreated it perfectly 20+ years later, then added in a bunch of inaccessible fake data. It's conspiracy theory at this point. [[User:Poliwhirl|Poliwhirl]] ([[User talk:Poliwhirl|talk]]) 14:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
::At this point I doubt that there is anyone in denial apart from one nameless moderator. I think it's mostly just lack of discussion within the moderator team about how to implement it. I know that a few of the mods-- Spriteit and Abcboy come to mind-- have been pushing for action, so the issue at least isn't completely stagnant.
 
::Apart from that, I don't really understand what decision making needs to be done apart from the obvious "yes" to whether we should put information on it on the site-- it's undeniably real, as we've been over many many times, and much of the groundwork has already been done by both average users and moderators in their userspaces.
 
::It makes me wish that a) the mod team was less private/more transparent about important decisions that average members have been pushing for, such as this, and b) that average members had a little more say in what goes on here. That being said, I am very grateful to the two aforementioned mods for being very polite, cooperative, and transparent about this whole issue.
 
::In the meantime, there's a page [[User:Frozen Fennec/Pokémon Gold and Silver Spaceworld Demo|here]] that is basically ready to go.
 
::Idk if this is too optimistic or not, but hopefully if I come back in two or so years the all clear will have been given. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#00A1E9">cela</span><span style="color:#BF004F">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 16:40, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 
I find it extremely odd that the Spaceworld information hasn't been implemented yet. It is borderline indisputable that this is real, there are far too many coincidences. Hell, I have further proof that it's real: the fact Tyranitar isn't in the demo. The MicroGroup Game Review Magazine specifically says that Tyranitar wasn't canon (as were none of the other designs), and this was released in April of 1997. The accurate translation only came to light after the demo's leak [https://plaguevonkarmabeta.weebly.com/blog/microgroup-game-review-vol14-sugimori-retranslated when Plague von Karma bought the magazine herself and had Obskyr look at it]. Tyranitar wasn't added in until after Spaceworld 1997, quite clearly. The rest not even being in the ROM furthers the evidence of this demo's legitimacy as well as a result of this. The person releasing this could not have known any of this without retranslating this magazine themselves. Why go through all that effort for such a hoax? --[[User:Pichu Madman26|Pichu Madman26]] ([[User talk:Pichu Madman26|talk]]) 03:50, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
:I don't think that's the best piece of evidence, but it shouldn't really matter, because we already are 100% sure it's real. The issue is that most of staff seems to be ignoring this completely.
 
:Other than that, I just want to bump this thread again. I rarely even use Bulbapedia anymore these days but it still disappoints me to see this still being pleaded for.
 
:If any mods are reading this, please at least let us know what's going on. --[[User:Celadonkey|<span style="color:#00A1E9">cela</span><span style="color:#BF004F">donk</span>]] ([[User talk:Celadonkey|talk]]) 18:36, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
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