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Talk:Lake guardians: Difference between revisions
→Move to "Pokémon of the lakes"
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Why won't the links to Neptune and Jupiter work? The one for Minerva works. --[[User:Shiny Noctowl|<span style="color: brown">S</span><span style="color: red">h</span><span style="color: brown">i</span><span style="color: red">n</span><span style="color: brown">y</span> <span style="color: red">N</span><span style="color: brown">o</span><span style="color: red">c</span><span style="color: brown">t</span><span style="color: red">o</span><span style="color: brown">w</span><span style="color: red">l</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Shiny Noctowl|<span style="color: brown">T</span><span style="color: red">a</span><span style="color: brown">l</span><span style="color: red">k</span>]] | [[User:Shiny Noctowl/Fun|<span style="color: brown">F</span><span style="color: red">u</span><span style="color: brown">n</span>]]</sup> | ==Untitled== | ||
Why won't the links to Neptune and Jupiter work? The one for Minerva works. --[[User:Shiny Noctowl|<span style="color: brown">S</span><span style="color: red">h</span><span style="color: brown">i</span><span style="color: red">n</span><span style="color: brown">y</span> <span style="color: red">N</span><span style="color: brown">o</span><span style="color: red">c</span><span style="color: brown">t</span><span style="color: red">o</span><span style="color: brown">w</span><span style="color: red">l</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Shiny Noctowl|<span style="color: brown">T</span><span style="color: red">a</span><span style="color: brown">l</span><span style="color: red">k</span>]] | [[User:Shiny Noctowl/Fun|<span style="color: brown">F</span><span style="color: red">u</span><span style="color: brown">n</span>]]</sup> 01:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I'll take a look, but if I can't fix it, ask [[User:Zhen Lin|Zhen]] to. -[[User:Politoed666|Politoed666]] 01:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC) | :I'll take a look, but if I can't fix it, ask [[User:Zhen Lin|Zhen]] to. -[[User:Politoed666|Politoed666]] 01:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
::I got it. You accidentally used a colon instead of a | between wp and Jupiter or Neptune. -[[User:Politoed666|Politoed666]] 01:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC) | ::I got it. You accidentally used a colon instead of a | between wp and Jupiter or Neptune. -[[User:Politoed666|Politoed666]] 01:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
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== Puddle shapes == | == Puddle shapes == | ||
{{u|M.vit}} added to this page that the three puddles are in the shapes of the [[dragon trio]]. I can sort of see {{p|Giratina}} in Uxie's cave, but {{p|Palkia}} and {{p|Dialga}}... I just don't see them. Does anyone believe this is true besides M.vit? There may be something to this, but I want to get everyone's opinion before I revert again. --[[User:Martonimos|<font color="#008000">Martonimos</font>]]<sub>[[User talk:Martonimos|((<font color="#00FF00">Talk</font>))]]</sub> | {{u|M.vit}} added to this page that the three puddles are in the shapes of the [[Creation trio|dragon trio]]. I can sort of see {{p|Giratina}} in Uxie's cave, but {{p|Palkia}} and {{p|Dialga}}... I just don't see them. Does anyone believe this is true besides M.vit? There may be something to this, but I want to get everyone's opinion before I revert again. --[[User:Martonimos|<font color="#008000">Martonimos</font>]]<sub>[[User talk:Martonimos|((<font color="#00FF00">Talk</font>))]]</sub> | ||
:On second thought, I will revert it, and we can add it later if we decide it's correct. Better to keep speculation off the pages and add facts later. --[[User:Martonimos|<font color="#008000">Martonimos</font>]]<sub>[[User talk:Martonimos|((<font color="#00FF00">Talk</font>))]]</sub> 07:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC) | :On second thought, I will revert it, and we can add it later if we decide it's correct. Better to keep speculation off the pages and add facts later. --[[User:Martonimos|<font color="#008000">Martonimos</font>]]<sub>[[User talk:Martonimos|((<font color="#00FF00">Talk</font>))]]</sub> 07:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC) | ||
:: In fact, I can't see anything.... All I see is A triangle in Uxie's Cavern, A Square in Both Azelf's and Mesprit's Cavern. [[User:Force Fire|Force Fire]] 09:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC) | :: In fact, I can't see anything.... All I see is A triangle in Uxie's Cavern, A Square in Both Azelf's and Mesprit's Cavern. [[User:Force Fire|Force Fire]] 09:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC) | ||
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Shouldn't it be moved already? There's no point in continuing to keep a fan-made term. [[User:J-J-M|<span style="color: #000033">'''J'''</span>]]'''-'''[[User talk:J-J-M|<span style="color: #000099">'''J'''</span>]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/J-J-M|<span style="color: #000033">'''M'''</span>]] 21:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC) | Shouldn't it be moved already? There's no point in continuing to keep a fan-made term. [[User:J-J-M|<span style="color: #000033">'''J'''</span>]]'''-'''[[User talk:J-J-M|<span style="color: #000099">'''J'''</span>]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/J-J-M|<span style="color: #000033">'''M'''</span>]] 21:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
:Hello DP150. They called it, repeatedly, the lake trio. Thank you TPCI! Shall we move it back? '''[[User:TTEchidna|<span style="color:#FF0000">''TTE''</span>]][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 04:17, 28 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Puddle Shapes == | == Puddle Shapes == | ||
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the puddle of uxie looks like it is uxie when opening its eyes, mesprit puddle is like mesprit turning its head to the right. azelf's puddle takes a distorted image of its head. it might be spec but with concentration it could be seen as the heads of the lake trio.--[[User:Nobody777|Nobody777]] 12:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC) | the puddle of uxie looks like it is uxie when opening its eyes, mesprit puddle is like mesprit turning its head to the right. azelf's puddle takes a distorted image of its head. it might be spec but with concentration it could be seen as the heads of the lake trio.--[[User:Nobody777|Nobody777]] 12:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC) | ||
:The puddles are used to show where the other to members would be. Take Mt Corenet. The three Members form a triangle, With Dia/Pal/Gira in the middle. The shapes of the puddles and the member form a triangle as well. At least, thats what i got out of it. [[User talk: ShinyPikachu|<sub><span style="background:#FF8040"><span style="color:#FFFFFD">Shiny</span></span></sub>]][[User:ShinyPikachu|<span style="background:#FFFF00"><span style="color:#E57E4C;">'''Pika'''</span></span>]] 19:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
== After a week? == | |||
Can somebody clear this up? If you defeat one of them, will they be there the week after? Please help!--[[User:Maii|Maii]] 20:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)Maii | |||
:When I defeated one of them in Diamond, they didn't come back. so ill have to say no for DP. As for Pt, i have no Idea. [[User:ShinyPikachu/Petition|Never Give Up]] [[User:ShinyPikachu|<span style="background:#FFFF00"><span style="color:#E57E4C;">'''Pika'''</span></span>]] 19:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
::I've heard that it's after you beat Cynthia (again). That's how it worked in my Platinum, anyway.--[[User:Purimpopoie|Purimpopoie]] 20:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
== A Parallel between the lake trios and Odin, Vé and Vili == | |||
I was reading up on the god Odin (father of Thor) after seeing a episode of SHS on CN. Well it turns out that Odin has 2 brothers. Now granted this is from Wikipedia, and I've yet to google any more into this, I think its interesting how much Odin and his brothers Parallel Uxie, Mesprit and Azelf. To the first human couple, Ask and Embla, Odin gave soul and life; Vili gave wit (intelligence) and sense of touch; and Vé gave countenance (appearance, facial expression), speech, hearing, and sight. So should this be mentioned in this article and/or their individual articles? [[User:Yami Takashi|Yami]] 02:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
: Should I just add this info or what? Odin and his brothers represent something that is apart of humanity, just like the lake trio. Plus its not uncommon for there to be multiple counterparts to mythological deities. The article already mentions Athena/Minerva, Poseidon/Neptune, and Zeus/Jupiter, and the {{wp|Vili}} makes a similar mention so I think that's covered. [[User:Yami Takashi|Yami]] 17:35, 17 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::No, I don't think so. The comparisons are extremely vague, and seeing as there are no similarities in appearance, vague similarities in concept are too little to go by. --[[User:AndyPKMN|AndyPKMN]] 00:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::: What do you mean similarities in appearance? [[User:Yami Takashi|Yami]] 01:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
== trivia == | |||
arent these and cresellia the only legendaries that haven't appeared in any movies?--[[User:Ash0011|Ash0011]] 19:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
== Trivia == | |||
Shouldn't it be noted that the lake trio (Azelf, Mespirit, and Uxie) are the only legendary Pokemon not to have a signature move?--[[User:Sylveon|Sylveon]] ([[User talk:Sylveon|talk]]) 06:33, 27 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:{{p|Articuno|The}} {{p|Zapdos|three}} {{p|Moltres|birds}}. To name a few.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#025DA6">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#5A96C5">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#EA1A3E">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#F16A81">ire</span>]] 08:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::You're right. I forgot about them.--[[User:Sylveon|Sylveon]] ([[User talk:Sylveon|talk]]) 02:02, 28 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== In the games > Pokemon Omega Ruby And Alpha Sapphire == | |||
Uxie and Azelf seem to be switched in terms of times. I also don't know if 8pm should be classified as "sunset" since the sun sets at different times throughout the year and across the world. Also, should it be mentioned that the player needs to capture them in order to capture Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina?[[User:WizardOfStaz|WizardOfStaz]] ([[User talk:WizardOfStaz|talk]]) 11:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I replaced the terms with the actual times they appear. As for the second point, I'm not sure if that should be mentioned on this page or their pages instead. ☆<span style="font-family:Algerian">[[User:Solar Dragon|<span style="color:green">The</span>]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|<span style="color:red">Solar</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|<span style="color:blue">Dragon</span>]]</span>☆ 12:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
== The abilities of each == | |||
Could information be added about the trio's ability to cause a loss of will, emotion and knowledge as is mentioned in the [[Sinnoh Myths]]? I don't really know where to put this it may need a new section. | |||
== Logos, Ethos, Pathos == | |||
Would it be reasonable to draw a link to the concepts of logos, ethos and pathos given that a link has already been drawn to the imperial regalia which are said to represent wisdom (logos), benevolence (ethos) and valour (pathos)? [[User:Pharap|Pharap]] ([[User talk:Pharap|talk]]) 23:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC) | |||
== Trivia == | |||
The lake guardians were, up until gen 8, the only trio to ''solely' have a trinomial, and (fairly) unique way of determining the levels at which they learn moves; | |||
1 (6*0)+(3*0)+(1*1) | |||
6 (6*1)+(3*0)+(1*0) | |||
16 (6*2)+(3*1)+(1*1) | |||
21 (6*3)+(3*1)+(1*0) | |||
31 (6*4)+(3*2)+(1*1) | |||
36 (6*5)+(3*2)+(1*0) | |||
46 (6*6)+(3*3)+(1*1) | |||
51 (6*7)+(3*3)+(1*0) | |||
61 (6*8)+(3*4)+(1*1) | |||
66 (6*9)+(3*4)+(1*0) | |||
76 (6*10)+(3*5)+(1*1) | |||
I am not sure how to write the equation for this, but it would make them the only legendary trio who ''only'' have a trinomial formula (the Tapus have a trinomial formula, 4(n+1)-(n-1)-(n-6), but only once n≥7). It is also interesting that all 3 of the lake guardians weigh 0.3kg and are 0.3m tall. Other things, like the catch rate of 3, are not unique to them, and not notable. Thank you. {{unsigned|INTERNETFRIEND}} | |||
:Far too specific and complex to be notable.--[[User:Force Fire|<span style="color:#00A1E9">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#59C2F1">orce</span>]][[User talk:Force Fire|<span style="color:#BF004F">'''F'''</span><span style="color:#D5598C">ire</span>]] 04:47, 11 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Angels == | |||
Given their connection to Arceus, could the Lake Guardians not also pull inspiration from angels? Specifically the highest orders of angels: Seraphim (characterized by their "burning love to God"), Cherubim (characterized by knowledge), and Thrones (aka "valiant ones"). Mesprit—the Emotion Pokémon—would be a seraph, Uxie—the Knowledge Pokémon—a cherub, and Azelf—residing in the Lake of Valor—a throne. [[User:Icycatelf|Icycatelf]] ([[User talk:Icycatelf|talk]]) 14:56, 24 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Move to "Pokémon of the lakes" == | |||
This page is primarily about Azelf, Mesprit, and Uxie in the games, so it seems odd to call the page "lake guardians" when that term has only been applied to the trio in the Ashnime. In fact, in the games, "lake guardians" is only ever used as the name of a HOME research task that asks you to catch the three Pokémon that you battle in the lake caverns during the main story of Legends: Arceus (Hisuian Goodra, Hisuian Zoroark, and Overqwil). So it doesn't seem like an apt name for Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf. | |||
I'd like to propose moving the page to '''Pokémon of the lakes''' (a term which is already mentioned in the lede), since this phrase has been consistently applied to the trio in the games: | |||
: ''"Capturing the '''Pokémon of the lakes''' will free the Pokémon of Mt. Coronet. From the '''Pokémon of the lakes''', crystals can be extracted to create a Red Chain."'' ({{DL|Team Galactic HQ|Cyrus's computer}}; Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, Brilliant Diamond, and Shining Pearl) | |||
: ''"The '''Pokémon of the lakes''' seem eager to show us something..."'' ([[Cynthia/Quotes|Cynthia]]; Platinum) | |||
: ''"The Red Chain has shattered... But we owe the '''Pokémon of the lakes''' our thanks for getting us this far."'' ([[Irida/Quotes|Irida]]; Legends: Arceus) | |||
This is not an exhaustive list, by the way. I'm just using these quotes to demonstrate that this phrase has been used in the games for over a decade, so it's a logical phrase to use as their group name. [[User:Storm Aurora|'''<span style="background:-webkit-linear-gradient(left,#9CB8C6,#625A88);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">Storm Aurora</span>''']] ([[User talk:Storm Aurora|talk]]) 04:13, 20 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Pokémon of the lakes is a good name for the trio and closest to official name we have. I say go for it, that is vote for renaming.--[[User:Jacob9594|Jacob9594 ]] ([[User talk:Jacob9594|talk]]) 15:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Just to make a quick list to catch anyone up on our options (while also listing the pros and cons), we have "'''Lake Guardians'''" (seems to be anime only, which is why we are opting to change the game page title), "'''Lake Trio'''" (one of the only cases of a game name/term used officially, found on Nintendo UK's page to describe the group and in pokemon center tags, but the reliability of those sources aren't rock solid), "'''UMA'''" (was used by Masuda himself, an actual term like "UFO", and is likely the closest to "creator's intent" seeing how it is also reflected in the pokemon's names in both Japanese and English, but it isn't officially used in game meaning it might not be the official title), and lastly different variations of "'''Pokemon of the lakes/lake Pokemon'''" (probably the most used in-game, but due to variations, sentence context, and lack of capitalization it might be more descriptive rather than an official title). So personally, I think it'd be best to write out their full names as the title ("'''Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf'''") and then explain all the title variations in the header like we've mostly done already. I believe examples like the Super Music Collection also simply write out their names, so while kind've unsatisfying of a conclusion, they simply might not have a concrete official title (yet, at least).[[User:TAHK0|TAHK0]] ([[User talk:TAHK0|talk]]) 23:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Yeah something like "Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf" or "Relationship between Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf" seems ideal (though I prefer the former of these two options, as this page isn't just about their relationship with each other, but their history as a group and interactions with others). [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#32b761">'''Land'''</span>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#5f6775"><small>'''fish7'''</small></span>]] 23:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::I'm not a fan of "Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf" because it can be hard to tell in prose whether it ought to link to the page for three Pokémon or three pages for each Pokémon. "Pokémon of the lakes" sounds fine to me. --[[User:Apopheniac|Apopheniac]] ([[User talk:Apopheniac|talk]]) 16:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Given that the in-game usage seems to be quite variable ("Pokémon of the lakes", "Pokémon of the three lakes", "Pokémon from the lakes", "the three legendary Pokémon of the lakes" are all used in DPPt, for example), I'm not sure there's a clearly established name for them in the games. There ''is'' a clearly established group name for them in the anime, so I think it would be best to use that name as the title of the page. The main argument against using a clearly established name from the anime when no such name exists in the games that I could see would be if the anime name was based on anime-exclusive lore, so wasn't applicable to other media; however, their status as guardians of the lakes is fairly universal across media, so I don't see a reason to avoid the anime name. | |||
:::::I can see a case for "Lake Trio", although that was a one-off usage in a product description; conversely, "Lake Guardians" has been used consistently in the anime — including both the original DP series and the more modern Arceus Chronicles. If we lacked the anime name, I would probably advocate for "Lake Trio" as the page title. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 10:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::I know I'm the one who initially proposed this move, but to be honest, as I was writing up the reasoning for it, I did kinda struggle to come up with a good reason why using the anime name for this page is bad. Like, they're maybe not strictly "guardians" of lakes in all media (they're often just residents), but they definitely have a consistent connection with lakes. Plus, as SnorlaxMonster said, the title was used in both the original DP series and in the Arceus Chronicles over a decade later, so it's not just a one-off term that they forgot about. A big part of the reason I like "Pokémon of the lakes" as a title is because it was used in both DPPt and PLA, so if the same holds true for "lake guardians", that's a pretty strong case for keeping the name as-is. For what it's worth, [[Legendary and Mythical Guidebook: Deluxe Edition|this book]] that was published in 2019 also refers to the three of them as the lake guardians. [[User:Storm Aurora|'''<span style="background:-webkit-linear-gradient(left,#9CB8C6,#625A88);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">Storm Aurora</span>''']] ([[User talk:Storm Aurora|talk]]) 15:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I think "'''Lake Guardians'''" being anime-only is worth drawing a line between since the game canon is treated separately and often can have different interpretations on the source material. I'm not saying they aren't lake guardians, but it'd probably be better to wait until there is at least one example in-game. That being said, there is actually one in-game use of "'''Lake Guardians'''", but it's used for a mission for HOME to collect the hisuian form pokemon guarding the lakes in PLA, which, to me, is more of a nod and might actually be a point against Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf having that title since they also have their own mission which doesn't use it. I think "'''Lake Trio'''" is an okay solution just because it has technically been used officially, but rather than settling I think "'''Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf'''" would be ideal until we have a concrete title because it has the least amount of holes, it's game accurate, and it's already been used officially. Other legendary groups will likely also have their names spelled out as well, like "Mew and Mewtwo", so it won't be alone in this type of naming scheme.[[User:TAHK0|TAHK0]] ([[User talk:TAHK0|talk]]) 17:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{indent}}Based on the above discussion, I think the name "Lake guardians" should be maintained. I think SnorlaxMonster makes a good point that the term is used consistently in the anime, and is not attached to a specific plot. Additionally, the term "guardians" is being used here potentially in lieu of "gods", so I feel "guardian" in this sense isn't meant to be taken so literally as "guarding", and more so just that these are powerful beings. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#32b761">'''Land'''</span>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#5f6775"><small>'''fish7'''</small></span>]] 03:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I would add that their in-game titles of "Being of Knowledge/Emotion/Willpower" are also the localized translations of "知識の神/感情の神/意思の神" (God of Knowledge/God of Emotion/God of Willpower), so calling them the "lake gods" is not far separated from those titles. --[[User:Abcboy|Abcboy]] ([[User talk:Abcboy|talk]]) 04:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
::I vote for Lake guardians as it already on page. plus the other title is alrwsyd mentioned on page. The name its currerntly on is good enoguh as it is.[[User:Jacob9594|Jacob9594 ]] ([[User talk:Jacob9594|talk]]) 20:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Personally I think "Pokémon of the lakes" sounds much nicer, but also I don't think we should be reliant on the anime for names unless necessary. "Pokémon of the lakes" is included within "the three legendary Pokémon of the lakes" as well as having a similar term of "Pokémon of the three lakes." the term itself seems pretty consistent among all the sinnoh-related games with very poor mention of lake guardians. If there's multiple variations, I don't think that's necessarily problematic, we'd just choose the most common one. the [[guardian deities]] have far more names than I can count, and listing the alternatives doesn't necessarily seem to be an issue for them. | |||
:::However, I'm not necessarily opposed keeping the name Lake guardians. In favor of this, Volo says "I imagine there may be Pokémon in there, protecting the '''lake’s guardian'''. Take care." previously this was assumed to be referring to Goodra, Overwill and Zoroark, but looking at the wording moreover that doesn't seem to be the case at all. additionally there's some questlines that all say the same thing (but have a different location name): "If you hope to obtain the Red Chain, you must undergo the '''trial of the guardian deity''' that lurks within Lake Verity in the Obsidian Fieldlands." once again, this was previously thought to be three non-legendary dudes mentioned. but Uxie, Mesprit and Azelf are actually the ones providing the trial, you just have to fight the other three first before taking it. We obviously can't name them "gaurdian deities" because that's already a group, but deities goes with the fact that they are called gods in Japanese, and the word "guardian" is present in the title again. [[User:TrainerSplash|TrainerSplash]] ([[User talk:TrainerSplash|talk]]) 08:28, 12 April 2024 (UTC) | |||