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Talk:History of the Pokémon world: Difference between revisions
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::The PWT in BW2 makes Emerald being canon even more likely. Blue is counted in the Champion Cup, implying they count current AND former Champions. Not only does Wallace appear, but he does so in the Champion Cup and using his Emerald appearance. It seems as if he became Champion in Emerald, then lost the title again to Steven, if he says he is Champion in HGSS on. [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 17:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC) | ::The PWT in BW2 makes Emerald being canon even more likely. Blue is counted in the Champion Cup, implying they count current AND former Champions. Not only does Wallace appear, but he does so in the Champion Cup and using his Emerald appearance. It seems as if he became Champion in Emerald, then lost the title again to Steven, if he says he is Champion in HGSS on. [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 17:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::Speculation, speculation. The solid fact is that HGSS take place after the Hoenn games and Steven is the Champion - like RSORAS, unlike Emerald. (And have you really paid attention to ORAS? Steven doesn't relinquish his title, he suggests he ''may'' do something like that ''one day''; ''both'' Magma and Aqua are villains in both games, the only difference is which of them is the bigger threat and which reforms first). And, please, don't say there were never radical redesigns in the past, you're insulting everyone's intelligence (Blaine, Karen, the Rocket Executives, there are countless examples). Moreover, PWT is purely fan service and its canonicity is questionable; seriously, it has ''Giovanni'' waltzing around the place. Bottom line: as far as we know, remakes work now the same way they '''''always''''' did. You're desperately trying to find excuses to assume that Game Freak will for some reason change the way things have always been done and somehow deem that a ten year-old game is canon and the newest releases -- telling the same story -- are non-canon. - [[User:Taylor|Taylor]] ([[User talk:Taylor|talk]]) 20:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC) | :::Speculation, speculation. The solid fact is that HGSS take place after the Hoenn games and Steven is the Champion - like RSORAS, unlike Emerald. (And have you really paid attention to ORAS? Steven doesn't relinquish his title, he suggests he ''may'' do something like that ''one day''; ''both'' Magma and Aqua are villains in both games, the only difference is which of them is the bigger threat and which reforms first). And, please, don't say there were never radical redesigns in the past, you're insulting everyone's intelligence (Blaine, Karen, the Rocket Executives, there are countless examples). Moreover, PWT is purely fan service and its canonicity is questionable; seriously, it has ''Giovanni'' waltzing around the place. Bottom line: as far as we know, remakes work now the same way they '''''always''''' did. You're desperately trying to find excuses to assume that Game Freak will for some reason change the way things have always been done and somehow deem that a ten year-old game is canon and the newest releases -- telling the same story -- are non-canon. - [[User:Taylor|Taylor]] ([[User talk:Taylor|talk]]) 20:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
::Giovanni was allowed to be Gym Leader in the first place, y'know, so I doubt anyone would bat an eye at him if he waltzed into the PWT. And since Driftveil was renovated for the purpose of hosting it, and the events with Colress there, I think it's canonical status is spoken for. Plus, the Rocket Execs? If you're referring to Proton and Petrel, the design was still used by Archer, so... there.And I'm not denying there weren't ANY radical redesigns, but they at least attempted to keep the same appearance with the majority of the characters. A good portion of THE ENTIRE CAST is radically altered and there's a blatent sense they aren't intended to look anyting like the originals (Contrast Emerald Brawly with ORAS Brawly, then GSC Brock with HGSS Brock for my point...) Lastly, I find it a bit hypocritical you'd put "No Speculation" on an article that has pretty much no basis for the placement of Pokemon XD. Im am not implying ORAS is non canon either. That's pure speculation on your part.--[[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 22:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Separate Timeline? == | |||
I think Gen VI is set in a separate timeline since Mega Evolution is in the games and isn't in the games prior to them. Also Zinnia states about another Hoenn where Mega Evolution is unknown, which could be the one from RSE. [[User:Ellis99|Ellis99]] ([[User talk:Ellis99|talk]]) 12:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC) | |||
It was confirmed a while ago that the events of X and Y are contemporaneous with the events of BW2 in terms of the timeline of all games as a whole (in other words, BW2 and XY happen at the same time). Plus, it isn't confirmed that the original RSE timeline is the exact alternate Hoenn that Zinnia refers to in the Delta Episode. Plus, I think you took that wrong, even if X and Y are in a different universe, I don't think it is exactly a ''separate timeline'', per se, but rather an alternate universe with a very similar timeline, but with the presence of Mega Evolution and the war. Furthermore, I strongly doubt this would matter much, as this page is already filled to the brim with discrepancy anyways, and Pokemon history is already very unstable and confusing... [[User:ScraftyIsTheBest|ScraftyIsTheBest]] ([[User talk:ScraftyIsTheBest|talk]]) 14:43, 10 January 2015 (UTC) | |||
==Origins of Weather Trio== | |||
I haven't played ORAS, so where's the info about the origins of Weather trio coming from? [[User:Trainer Yusuf|Trainer Yusuf]] ([[User talk:Trainer Yusuf|talk]]) 17:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC) | |||
== Error on Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire == | |||
Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire events(ORAS for short) didn't happen at the same time as original ruby and sapphire, instead, they happen at the same time as the events of XY. the events that happen in ORAS are similar to RS however it's a different universe as was hinted at the delta episode, and also, that explain why looker is found at the battle tower island, not remembering everything, after getting from XY's Kalos to ORAS's Hoenn for unkown reason as it was probably moved between universes! | |||
also, it fixes the trading paradox, as if XY and ORAS are happening in the same time, it's the only explanation of how you can trade betweem the two games(different universes but same time)! whereas it would be impossible to trade from XY to original RS(as RS happens at the past of XY), the assumption that ORAS is not the same time as RS makes sense!! | |||
[[User:Shaked|Shaked]] ([[User talk:Shaked|talk]]) 19:52, 2 July 2016 (UTC) | |||
:We're not going to rely on fan theories like "it would be impossible to trade [otherwise]" to decide that sort of thing. The only things that seem to date ORAS at all (mentions of Kalos around the Battle Maison, a general mention of the Kalos war 3000 years ago (i.e., it's at least ''roughly'' contemporary with XY), Professor Cozmo mentioning working with Sycamore "a few years ago"...and ''maybe'' the general state of Mega Evolution knowledge) don't place it at any very definite time. | |||
:We may be wrong, but we're hardly certain whether we are or aren't. There's a huge rabbit hole we could go down thanks to the whole parallel universe trick. We can't approach the question of ORAS's place in the timeline haphazardly. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 20:30, 2 July 2016 (UTC) | |||
well, it can't be 'fan theory' as the fact gen II and gen IV, are happening at the same time and gen I and gen III happening at the same time was made as to give explanation why does both can trade with each other, as otherwise no such explanation were needed(as people wondered how gen I and gen III can trade pokemon in between and same for II and IV). | |||
as you stated, you can't know if it is RS timeline or XY timeline, so placing it at the timeline of RS is wrong as well, and ORAS events should be placed outside of timeline, stating it is happening at a parallel universe, or otherwise, no one told you that ORAS happend the same time as RS. | |||
furthermore, there was no problem with assuming that RGBY and FRGL are same universe and GSC and HGSS are same universe as no trading paradox was made! JUST becuase there would be trading paradox between ORAS and XY if ORAS=RS, they invented the parallel universe thingy, to fix it up.(if in the future a remake of diamond and pearl is made, they can "play" with that parallel universe even again). [[User:Shaked|Shaked]] ([[User talk:Shaked|talk]]) 20:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC) | |||
:<small>I think when you say Gen I, II, III, and IV, you're meaning the events of RBY, GSC, RSE, and DPPt... But saying it like that is incredibly confusing, because Gen III and IV ''also'' contained remakes of the Gen I and II games. If it comes up again, I hope you can remember to be clearer.</small> | |||
:FWIW, the reference at the bottom of the page confirms the basic chronology on this page through XY; so we certainly don't have to rely on direct trading capabilities to "prove" that two stories happened at the same time (up to XY at least). | |||
:Also FWIW, BW and B2W2 can trade, and we're ''quite'' certain those have a non-trivial time difference. Maybe direct trading was part of the justification at one time (I'm not at all sure there weren't other decent reasons, but I'm not interested in researching it that deeply), but given the Gen V games, it's definitely not viable anymore. | |||
:You also have no evidence that the parallel universe thing was invented to "fix" the possibility of some paradox; you're only guessing. (What I'm trying to say is, please try not to put words in the developers' mouths.) Hell, is it even any neater or anything? (IMO, no.) Either you're trading between different times—which at least we've seen before, first explicitly for RBY and GSC, then quietly for BW and B2W2—or you're trading (or perhaps transferring, at some point) between parallel universes. Short of another cutoff like Gen II->III, there's probably not a "reasonable" solution if they're going to keep doing remakes. | |||
:All that being said... It may be reasonable to distinguish ORAS from the normal timeline. (That's probably not a decision anyone should take entirely upon themselves, though...) [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 21:32, 2 July 2016 (UTC) | |||
First let me say that aside from remakes of Generation 1 games existing in Generation 3 (FR/LG), there is nothing that strictly says the events of Kanto happened in tandem with the events in Hoenn, unless you have some other source I have not been able to find. | |||
I've done EXTENSIVE research on this and I am glad someone else pointed this out before Sun and Moon even came out. With the advent of Sun and Moon we have CONFIRMED the existence of alternate universes, and that Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald exist in a universe/on a timeline separate from OR/AS, X/Y, and Sun and Moon. However, Shaked was keen to point out that OR/AS already has differences that we could have spotted in Generation 6 alone. Let me list a few more below, as cited from the "References to Other Generations" page on Bulbabedia itself. In the OR/AS references to RSE, the following can be found: | |||
A Bug Catcher tells the player that he "heard that Pokémon Centers used to have two stories until 10 years ago" and had "a special area known as the Pokémon Cable Club". The last game to utilise this feature, Pokémon Emerald, was first released in 2004, 10 years before the remakes were released. | |||
A man at Mt. Pyre mentions how there used to be holes in the floor, a thing that was true in Generation III. | |||
When the player shows Norman the Eon Ticket, he says that it has been 11 years since he last saw the ticket. Eon Ticket was originally distributed in 2003, 11 years before the remakes' release. | |||
All of these are in game pieces of dialogue; lore inserted into the game to inform the player about the universe that they are roaming. These are direct references to the original Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald games, placing them as existing 10 to 11 years before the events of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire. This suggests that the major events of OR/AS take place 10-11 years later than they do in RSE. Red and Blue from RBY have aged about that much (give or take two years) in Sun and Moon, and with the "Remake Rule" that Gen 1 games (RBY) and Gen 3 games (RSE) happened simultaneously because of Gen 3 remakes FR/LG, the idea of OR/AS taking place around this time makes sense (likely just before the events of Sun and Moon). | |||
Another huge piece of evidence that links OR/AS with the time of X/Y: Wally. In Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, we see a mega evolution using Wally who grows to become a strong trainer. In Sun and Moon, we see Wally again, and he seems to have slightly aged. However, he has not aged 10 years like Red and Blue have (which would HAVE to be the case if OR/AS and RSE happened at the same time as the events of RBY). He’s only grown a bit taller, as if aged up two to three years or so to be a young teenager. We know from the official Sun and Moon concept art for Grimsley found in the collector's guide that Sun and Moon happen two years after B2W2 (and because of the tweet, X and Y as well). So that two years of growth into an adolescent make perfect sense. Besides the slight height difference, his design remains about the same. If OR/AS was parallel in time with RSE, then Wally would ALSO have to be 21 like Red and Blue in Sun and Moon, which is most definitely not the case. Now, some people believe that Wally could just not have grown due to his “disease” that he has. But if you look at the details to what his disease actually is, you realize that it’s most likely a respiratory disease, like asthma. We can infer this from the fact that when Wally and his family move to Verdanturf, a town that is remarked by residents to have exceptionally clean air, Wally’s health is said to greatly improve because of it. This doesn’t entirely rule out a genetic growth disease, but I doubt that anything affected by genetics will improve instantaneously with a change in air quality. | |||
References to Kalos and its technology—most notably the model of Prism Tower from Lumiose City—link these games very solidly to X and Y. There are VERY few links to Kanto to be found in the Hoenn of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, so to assume that they are intrinsically related would be misled. | |||
Also, Anabel, a character seen ONLY in Pokémon Emerald before Sun and Moon, was said to have been found on the shores of Alola about 10 years ago by Looker and Nanu after having been cast through an Ultra Wormhole. This matches up closely with the timeline evidence I presented above. | |||
Finally, you should follow your own "Remake Rule" regarding OR/AS! If Gen 1 and Gen 3 events happen at the same time because of the Gen 1 remakes in Gen 3, and the same for Gen 2 and Gen 4, then the same should hold true for Gen 3 and Gen 6. Why make an exception to that pattern now? It only weakens the links for the other ones. | |||
Combine that all with the confirmation of a split between mega and non-mega universes, and you have very convincing evidence that OR/AS is more closely linked to X/Y than R/B/Y, and that the events do not happen simultaneously. | |||
Let's talk about that tweet "reference" that is used for the timeline. Not only has that tweet since been deleted, but it came out before any lore about parallel timelines existed in Pokémon. Now that this has been confirmed in Generation 7, this tweet looks very outdated, especially with the idea that X and Y exist in a universe separate from the games that it came before. Also, that official ordering says specifically RSE, and makes no mention of OR/AS. To assume they are the same is incorrect and baseless. | |||
I'm really hoping that what I've presented here helps convince you to rethink your placement of OR/AS. [[User:AlmigthtyArceus|AlmigthtyArceus]] ([[User talk:AlmigthtyArceus|talk]]) 12:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
:This is an incredible analysis, but I do have one piece of information that kinda throws a wrench in it: Porygon. In Firered, its Pokédex entry implies that it was a ''very'' recently created Pokémon, based on the Pokédex's use of "the most advanced technologies", and not including "of its time" or any similar phrase that would indicate a particularly distant past. Meanwhile, its entry in Sun states that it was created "roughly 20 years ago". In other words, there's a 20-year gap between the Kanto games and the Alola ones. [[User:Eskay64|Eskay64]] ([[User talk:Eskay64|talk]]) 18:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Pokémon Colosseum and Pokémon Ranger == | |||
How do we know Colosseum and Ranger take place shortly after Generations 1 and 3, and subsequently, how do we know XD Gale of Darkness takes place about two years after Generations 2 and 4? | |||
Also, do we know where the Ranger sequels fall on this timeline? [[User:BlackButterfree|BlackButterfree]] ([[User talk:BlackButterfree|talk]]) 08:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
== The timeskip between Generation II/IV and Generation V == | |||
I see that the page now states Generation V took place "At least three years after Generation II/Generation IV". Why is that? As far as I know, there was no information available about much time passed between Generation II/IV and Generation V. | |||
--[[User:Scan|Scan]] ([[User talk:Scan|talk]]) 21:55, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
:Generation VII takes place at least 10 years after Emerald, because of the amount of time [[Anabel]] has been in Alola. All the other gaps have a canonical length, so when you add it all up{{tt|*|3 years from III-IV, 2 years from BW to B2W2 and VI, 2 years from VI to VII}}, the gap from IV to V can be no less than three years. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 23:46, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
== More on alternate timelines == | |||
Doesn't the stuff with Anabel in Sun/Moon further imply the alternate timeline/reality thing? [[User:TheFatPanda|TheFatPanda]] ([[User talk:TheFatPanda|talk]]) 16:54, 19 April 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Game chronology == | |||
This page is very much in-universe and doesn't cite its sources at all. Since timeline disputes have come up numerous times on various pages (usually about characters' ages), I would like to add [[User:Pumpkinking0192/Game timeline]] as a subsection either on this page or on [[Core series#Timeline]]. The rigorous citations will clearly explain the timeline, so people shouldn't get confused anymore. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 20:09, 6 May 2017 (UTC) | |||
:Poke. Does anyone have an opinion on this proposal? [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 15:01, 21 May 2017 (UTC) | |||
::First off, why do you repeat yourself in the GS and HGSS paragraph? [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 15:21, 21 May 2017 (UTC) | |||
:::Because I'm trying to be rigorous and provide an exact citation for each game, and not just assume that remakes or third versions take place at the same time as their originals. I believe the first paragraph (Yellow, E, FRLG, ORAS) is the only place those citations are impossible and such assumptions have to be made. Obviously if the staff don't think that's necessary, it can be pared down, but just to start with I wanted to be as thorough as possible. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 15:26, 21 May 2017 (UTC) | |||
::::Your GS/HGSS references already specify the games. | |||
::::If I try to make an alternate, would you prefer I leave your userpage alone? Or that I simply make a second section? Or do you care if I replace it, with the original simply remaining in the past revisions? [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 16:09, 21 May 2017 (UTC) | |||
:::::Any of that is fine by me. Thanks for your interest in the subject! [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 16:16, 21 May 2017 (UTC) | |||
::::::I found the right-floating table a little hard to deal with or understand, mainly because of the large ranges in some perhaps, but also because it was relatively onerous to keep a given number in mind and then look for the piece of prose that says something about that number. For that reason, I put it all together in one table. I also added an explicit "years passed" column, because that's the actual number we usually have, and I think it's good to be able to find that easily and ''then'' see how that affects the aggregate timeline. | |||
::::::The third version/remake caveat emptors can all be a preface to the more proper specifics. On a vaguely similar subject, you could probably also combine the GS and HGSS references into one (just adding the text of the latter onto the end of the former), since it's really the same thing just with version/remake differences. | |||
::::::I really think the alternate universe deserves to be kept as separate as possible too, so I put those games in their own column. We could maybe take out notes that still state that a game takes place in the Mega Evolution universe since that's arguably taken care of by the ME timeline's column. (Maybe it could stay where XY and B2W2 are said to be contemporaneous, just to make it clear they're still separate.) | |||
::::::I also moved all the reference "text" to the end, because having all that inline with the first references of each just bloated the wikicode; they work fine at the end, and it's much easier to get a handle on the text that actually uses the references. | |||
::::::I'm not sure where/if it belongs on this page, but I think that all is better if it will go somewhere. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 17:03, 21 May 2017 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I like it! I don't think it needs to be sortable, but otherwise I don't have anything to complain about. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 17:11, 21 May 2017 (UTC) | |||