Talk:Ash's Charizard: Difference between revisions

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Tiddlywinks

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 ::: The title of the manga called Otoko no Isshou , for starters. And Word of God isn't canon. Unless the anime in its own universe says a thing is a thing, it isn't, because Word of God must be reflected in existing canon. That's why Scraggy and Butterfree aren't confirmed canon male as well and why Death Battle was wrong about Toph beating Gaara. Attract, Captivate, word in universe or nah. That's the rule:As an admin, you know this. Charizard could still be transgender, non-binary, lesbian(or gay, since Charla's name and their wearing a ribbon isn't proof either...I recommend that be re-looked at as well....).  --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 02:25, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 ::::...Come on. If the book is about the anime, it's certainly valid evidence. And if someone said that Ash and Charizard were swearing a man's oath in English, the immediate assumption would be that they're both male, and for good reason. (This is not different in the Japanese in question.) I don't say it's infallible reasoning, but it's absolutely not a case where we need to invent reasons for doubt; if there's some contradiction somewhere, fine, but until then, male should be absolutely logical. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 03:47, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
+::::: We have never used supplemental material, or Tracey West's novelizations' many mistakes would be canon. I don't assume genders, because Force Fire and Kogoro said not to. Unless you're going to override their authority...The rule is the rule, and bending it further will lead to excuses for precedents for Pokémon like Totodile, Corphish, Heracross, Crobat and other similarly disputed genders, . Unless you'd care to rescind the Attract-Captivate(with one gender canon)-In-universe mention clause? Because if you do that, too many squabbles will happen. Charizard is unknown until it is mentioned in-universe(w/o Word of God), Attract/Captivate is used on it with one gender canon. I'm going to get Force Fire. --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 04:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
+::::::New evidence is really not something you can ALWAYS just dismiss out of hand. Sure, there are enough people out there who will think they have a new angle, when it really comes around to the same thing. But honestly, I'm quite willing to give Dennou Zenshi the benefit of the doubt that they have reasonable judgement here. (By which I mean, in something where ''I've'' not really known about any sort of history regarding this subject.) If you ask me, this is reinforced by their acknowledgement of "how controversial this subject has been". If you want to get ForceFire's attention, that's absolutely fine, but we shouldn't be presuming that the answer is DEFINITELY "no".
+::::::So I have a bit of an idea for the moment. Can we not assume I know exactly all of the things you're trying to refer to so that we might actually engage in productive/equal discussion?
+::::::Let's start with "Totodile, Corphish, Heracross, Crobat". Can you please explain in as much detail as possible the "problem" for these Pokemon?
+::::::Is the "Attract-Captivate [...] clause" related to the above? If not, can you explain why you think that has particular bearing on anything being discussed here?
+::::::And (just in case) if it's not part of the answers above, can you detail at least some of the "problems" with these [[Tracey West]] novelizations? [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 04:49, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
+:::::::I'd like to apologize for my earlier attitude, first of all.
+:::::::Totodile had a gender debate due to it falling in love with a Azumarill with a pink bow, that lead to a consensus that feminine bows do not equal female because of Piplup crossdressing.
+:::::::Corphish, Crobat and Ludicolo are similar cases.
+:::::::Heracross needs a settlement like Wobbuffet did, due to no obviously female Heracross appearing from Gen IV onward, because the anime could be pulling its own rules with gender differences.
+:::::::The clause in question has been stated many times to be the official policy of Bulbapedia.
+:::::::And as for Tracey West novelizations, that was an example of Word of God in action, since those were officially liscensed material related to the anime with a lot of errors ad continuity skips.
+:::::::But, to avoid conflict, I'm going to duck out of this discussion. --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 17:55, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
+::::::::So. OK. So much for discussion, I guess. I still kind of have questions about some of the above, I'm not sure they'd have bearing on this issue. But I guess if you're withdrawing from the issue it's kind of moot. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 13:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
+{{indent}}Everyone knows and it is more than proven that Charizard is male. The problem is stubbornness.--[[User:Hikaru Wazana|Hikaru Wazana]]  13:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
+:If you'd like to be constructive, we're happy to listen. But if that's all you have, please restrain yourself. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 13:45, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
+::What questions do you have about the above? Minus the Tracey West stuff, which I have explained was a bad example. --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 22:49, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
+:::I think my questions were mainly about the Tracey West books and my uncertainty about the connection there, but you've disclaimed that one now.
+:::The specific Pokemon mentioned are all just appearances/behaviors, which do not automatically mean anything absolute. You said originally that "bending the rule" (for Charizard here) would "lead to excuses" for those; but those cases are nothing like Charizard because (as far as you've explained, anyway) there is no extra material of any sort stating their gender. Accepting Charizard's gender based on Tomioka's comment in the book won't change anything for them.
+:::If your issue with the Attract-Captivate clause perhaps boils down to "it must occur in the anime", that's being just a little too strict. You can consider that "clause" a tool of convenience. It's a very good, very convenient tool, but it doesn't ''necessarily'' account for/preclude ''every'' possiblity. We can't start off '''knowing''' every possibility to guarantee that it accouts for them all satisfactorily. Again, it's still a fine tool; 99% of the time that "clause" conveys exactly what we need to. But that doesn't mean we can never accept something else like, say, a promotional poster somehow, or a book. A discussion divorced from that "clause" is worthwhile when such new cases arise, based on the new source's own merits, and reasonably informed&mdash;but not automatically dictated by&mdash;past lessons. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 02:12, 5 May 2018 (UTC)