Talk:Ash's Charizard: Difference between revisions

(→‎Info box Picture: new section)
(22 intermediate revisions by 12 users not shown)
Line 159: Line 159:
== Info box Picture ==
== Info box Picture ==


Can we not get a better pic of Charizard from BW? One where he is closer to the "camera" and his face is shown? The picture isn't really consistent with the shots of his other Pokémon.
Can we not get a better pic of Charizard from BW? One where he is closer to the "camera" and his face is shown? The picture isn't really consistent with the shots of his other Pokémon. {{unsigned|Charmander4}}
 
== If we don't document on the strength of Ash's Pokémon, then... ==
 
Why is Charizard an exception to this rule? As it has been pointed out, noting the strength of a Pokémon is rather opinionated, which is not something we want. Shouldn't this be removed? [[User:Uncle Edit|He's here! The one and only...Uncle Edit!]] ([[User talk:Uncle Edit|talk]]) 20:27, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
:Indeed. I've removed that paragraph, feel free to remove/reword anything I've missed. '''''[[User:Pokemaster97|<span style="color:Blue;">--Pokemaster</span>]][[User talk:Pokemaster97|<span style="color:Blue;">97</span>]]''''' 20:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 
==Mega evolution==
Should we try to protect it due to evidence like {{AP|Sceptile}} of [[Mega Evolution]]? [[User:Jskylinegtr|Jskylinegtr]] ([[User talk:Jskylinegtr|talk]]) 07:56, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
:Probably not, since there is no solid evidence that Ash's Charizard will be appearing soon or at the very least, Mega Evolving into Mega Charizard X/Y. [[User:Playerking95|Playerking95]] ([[User talk:Playerking95|talk]]) 08:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 
== Present Location ==
 
There's nothing in the last BW episode implying Charizard stayed at Oak's lab. All we know is that he was there for a picture. Charizard could've very easily returned to the Charicific Valley... it's kinda like with Gliscor after the Lily of the Valley Conference, until that episode confirmed his whereabouts. So should we say Charizard's status is unknown? [[User:Pikatwig|Pikatwig]] ([[User talk:Pikatwig|talk]]) 16:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
:Oak's lab was Charizard's last known location, so that's what is on the page unless it gets confirmed otherwise. [[User:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''AGG''</span>]][[User talk:Aggron989|<span style="color:#858585;">''RON''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Aggron989|<span style="color:#444444;">''989''</span>]] 20:13, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 
== Gender again ==
 
It looks like a proof Charizard is male has actually existed for nearly 19 years. [http://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/features/memorial_book_orange_islands_screenwriters_comments.html In the book that Dogasu is translating], Atsuhiro Tomioka ({{cat|Episodes written by Atsuhiro Tomioka|the most prominent and long-time writer of the anime}}) comments his episode [[EP105]] with a sentence ''"Feel warm inside at the men's oath taken by Satoshi and Lizardon!"''. "オトコのちかい/Men's oath" is certainly emphasizing that both of them are male, otherwise Tomioka would've used another word or just "oath". This is also similar to how Axew, Scraggy, and Krokorok were confirmed male when they were called figurative brothers. I'm bringing this up to the talk page first mostly because of how controversial this subject has been.--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|<font color="#AB0909">電</font><font color="#063A73">禅</font>]]<small>[[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|<font color="#fff" face="Tahoma"><span style="text-shadow:#000 0.2em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Den Zen</span></font>]]</small>''' 19:51, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
:That was in Gen I before gender was implemented as a mechanic. Not proof unless there is proof Tomioka was aware of all the the Gen II mechanics. That phrase is also referring to people with machismo, not literal men. Otherwise he is assuming/it's Word of God and not canon --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 20:15, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
::Genders have always implicitly existed in Pokémon (Nidoran family, Cubone, Kangaskhan, ''Bye Bye Butterfree'', ...), them not being a game mechanic is irrelevant. Tomioka is one of the main writers so whatever he says about the anime can be considered canon unless proven false. About the phrase, I'm still mostly sure "otoko no X" refers to literal men; there are better words for "manly", like "otokorashii". Can you find a counterexample involving a phrase "otoko no X" and a female?--'''[[User:Dennou Zenshi|<font color="#AB0909">電</font><font color="#063A73">禅</font>]]<small>[[User talk:Dennou Zenshi|<font color="#fff" face="Tahoma"><span style="text-shadow:#000 0.2em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Den Zen</span></font>]]</small>''' 22:56, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
::: The title of the manga called Otoko no Isshou , for starters. And Word of God isn't canon. Unless the anime in its own universe says a thing is a thing, it isn't, because Word of God must be reflected in existing canon. That's why Scraggy and Butterfree aren't confirmed canon male as well and why Death Battle was wrong about Toph beating Gaara. Attract, Captivate, word in universe or nah. That's the rule:As an admin, you know this. Charizard could still be transgender, non-binary, lesbian(or gay, since Charla's name and their wearing a ribbon isn't proof either...I recommend that be re-looked at as well....).  --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 02:25, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
::::...Come on. If the book is about the anime, it's certainly valid evidence. And if someone said that Ash and Charizard were swearing a man's oath in English, the immediate assumption would be that they're both male, and for good reason. (This is not different in the Japanese in question.) I don't say it's infallible reasoning, but it's absolutely not a case where we need to invent reasons for doubt; if there's some contradiction somewhere, fine, but until then, male should be absolutely logical. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 03:47, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
::::: We have never used supplemental material, or Tracey West's novelizations' many mistakes would be canon. I don't assume genders, because Force Fire and Kogoro said not to. Unless you're going to override their authority...The rule is the rule, and bending it further will lead to excuses for precedents for Pokémon like Totodile, Corphish, Heracross, Crobat and other similarly disputed genders, . Unless you'd care to rescind the Attract-Captivate(with one gender canon)-In-universe mention clause? Because if you do that, too many squabbles will happen. Charizard is unknown until it is mentioned in-universe(w/o Word of God), Attract/Captivate is used on it with one gender canon. I'm going to get Force Fire. --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 04:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
::::::New evidence is really not something you can ALWAYS just dismiss out of hand. Sure, there are enough people out there who will think they have a new angle, when it really comes around to the same thing. But honestly, I'm quite willing to give Dennou Zenshi the benefit of the doubt that they have reasonable judgement here. (By which I mean, in something where ''I've'' not really known about any sort of history regarding this subject.) If you ask me, this is reinforced by their acknowledgement of "how controversial this subject has been". If you want to get ForceFire's attention, that's absolutely fine, but we shouldn't be presuming that the answer is DEFINITELY "no".
::::::So I have a bit of an idea for the moment. Can we not assume I know exactly all of the things you're trying to refer to so that we might actually engage in productive/equal discussion?
::::::Let's start with "Totodile, Corphish, Heracross, Crobat". Can you please explain in as much detail as possible the "problem" for these Pokemon?
::::::Is the "Attract-Captivate [...] clause" related to the above? If not, can you explain why you think that has particular bearing on anything being discussed here?
::::::And (just in case) if it's not part of the answers above, can you detail at least some of the "problems" with these [[Tracey West]] novelizations? [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 04:49, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
:::::::I'd like to apologize for my earlier attitude, first of all.
:::::::Totodile had a gender debate due to it falling in love with a Azumarill with a pink bow, that lead to a consensus that feminine bows do not equal female because of Piplup crossdressing.
:::::::Corphish, Crobat and Ludicolo are similar cases.
:::::::Heracross needs a settlement like Wobbuffet did, due to no obviously female Heracross appearing from Gen IV onward, because the anime could be pulling its own rules with gender differences.
:::::::The clause in question has been stated many times to be the official policy of Bulbapedia.
:::::::And as for Tracey West novelizations, that was an example of Word of God in action, since those were officially liscensed material related to the anime with a lot of errors ad continuity skips.
:::::::But, to avoid conflict, I'm going to duck out of this discussion. --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 17:55, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
::::::::So. OK. So much for discussion, I guess. I still kind of have questions about some of the above, I'm not sure they'd have bearing on this issue. But I guess if you're withdrawing from the issue it's kind of moot. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 13:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
{{indent}}Everyone knows and it is more than proven that Charizard is male. The problem is stubbornness.--[[User:Hikaru Wazana|Hikaru Wazana]]  13:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
:If you'd like to be constructive, we're happy to listen. But if that's all you have, please restrain yourself. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 13:45, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
::What questions do you have about the above? Minus the Tracey West stuff, which I have explained was a bad example. --[[User:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|BlisseyandtheAquaJets]] ([[User talk:BlisseyandtheAquaJets|talk]]) 22:49, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
:::I think my questions were mainly about the Tracey West books and my uncertainty about the connection there, but you've disclaimed that one now.
:::The specific Pokemon mentioned are all just appearances/behaviors, which do not automatically mean anything absolute. You said originally that "bending the rule" (for Charizard here) would "lead to excuses" for those; but those cases are nothing like Charizard because (as far as you've explained, anyway) there is no extra material of any sort stating their gender. Accepting Charizard's gender based on Tomioka's comment in the book won't change anything for them.
:::If your issue with the Attract-Captivate clause perhaps boils down to "it must occur in the anime", that's being just a little too strict. You can consider that "clause" a tool of convenience. It's a very good, very convenient tool, but it doesn't ''necessarily'' account for/preclude ''every'' possiblity. We can't start off '''knowing''' every possibility to guarantee that it accouts for them all satisfactorily. Again, it's still a fine tool; 99% of the time that "clause" conveys exactly what we need to. But that doesn't mean we can never accept something else like, say, a promotional poster somehow, or a book. A discussion divorced from that "clause" is worthwhile when such new cases arise, based on the new source's own merits, and reasonably informed&mdash;but not automatically dictated by&mdash;past lessons. [[User:Tiddlywinks|Tiddlywinks]] ([[User talk:Tiddlywinks|talk]]) 02:12, 5 May 2018 (UTC)