Talk:??? (type): Difference between revisions

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→‎Proposition: Clarify the difference between ??? and Typeless

Sporecore

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 It's been suggested that when a Sky Plate-holding Arceus uses the move Roost, it will turn into the ???-type Arceus. However, as the only way for Arceus to GET Roost is through hacking, I have not been able to test these claims yet. However, if anyone here manages to play out this scenario by hacking an Arceus that has the move, please edit the article accordingly should the theory be proven correct. --[[User:Mburusu|M. Burusu]] 08:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
-:Well, then the same could happen to a Smeargle that Sketched Skill Swap and Roost, then swapped abilities with Kecleon. '''[[User:TTEchidna|<span style="color:#FF0000">''TTE''</span>]][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]][[Image:Ani155MS.gif|Fire echy]]''' 06:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
+:Well, then the same could happen to a Smeargle that Sketched Skill Swap and Roost, then swapped abilities with Kecleon. '''[[User:TTEchidna|<span style="color:#FF0000">''TTE''</span>]][[User talk:TTEchidna|chidna]]''' 06:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 ::THAT I could probably try out . . . but I don't think I have any Smeargle spare. I'll have to bring a friend into this . . . thanks for the suggestion! --[[User:Mburusu|M. Burusu]] 04:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 :::I hate to bump ancient conversations, but I tested this last night.
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 :::Is it actually ???-type, or is it the unknown type that Shadow moves use? The two are not the same. <span class="sc">[[User:Werdnae|<span style="color:#2D4B98;">Werdnae</span>]]</span> <small>[[User talk:Werdnae|<span style="color:#009000;">(talk)</span>]]</small> 01:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 ::::It's not super effective against non-Shadow Pokemon, or weak against Shadows. I don't know what type it would be in the game's code though. [[User:Vuvuzela2010|<span style="color:#FFFFFF; background-color:#6890F0">'''Vuvuzela2010''']]</span>[[Latios (Pokémon)|<span style="color:red; background-color:#6890F0"> Δ  ]]</span> 19:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
+== Mystery Dungeon ==
+In mystery dungeon series there is 2 ??? type moves (wide slash and vacuum-cut). {{unsigned|Savelijah}}
+== Weather Ball and Colour Change ==
+Does a Weather Ball used during Shadow Sky activate Kecleon's Colour Change, and turn it into the ???-type? Can someone check this? <small><span style="color:white; background-color:#007FFF">'''X'''</span>[[User:Vuvuzela2010|<span style="color:#007FFF; background-color:white">'''Vuvuzela2010''']]</span><span style="color:white; background-color:#007FFF">'''X'''</span></small> 11:22, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
+== Weather ball in gen V ==
+How does generation V get around with weather ball in gen V?--[[User:Cobalt174|Cobalt174]] ([[User talk:Cobalt174|talk]]) 01:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
+:If you're referring to [[??? (type)#Weather Ball|this]], it requires {{m|Shadow Sky}}, a [[Generation III]]-exclusive move. --[[User:Abcboy|Abcboy]] ([[User talk:Abcboy|talk]]) 01:52, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
+== Category of Weather Ball ==
+Is [[??? (type)|??? type]] {{m|Weather Ball}} a [[Physical move]] or a [[Special move]]? You can test it with {{m|Counter}} and {{m|Mirror Coat}}. (I'd do it myself but I don't have a {{P|Castform}}.) [[User:BOOXMOWO|BOOXMOWO]] ([[User talk:BOOXMOWO|talk]]) 19:39, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
+== Edit Request... ==
+Change
+"Leading up to the release of Pokémon X and Y, Sylveon's type is listed as ??? on official materials as its actual type has not been revealed."
+To
+"Leading up to the release of Pokémon X and Y, Sylveon's type is listed as ??? on official material until its actual type was revealed to be Fairy."
+[[User:Pokemon nomekop|Pokemon nomekop]] ([[User talk:Pokemon nomekop|talk]]) 18:54, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
+== This is ridiculous ==
+??? isn't and was NEVER a true type. The ??? simply means that something's type is unknown, which is why eggs are all categorized under this "type". The fact that this article treats it like a regular type is pretty cringe-worthy. - [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] ([[User talk:Ericss|talk]]) 13:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
+:It has coding that makes it recognizable as a type (until Generation V) and moves like {{m|Wide Slash}}, {{m|Vacuum Cut}}, and {{m|Weather Ball}} (While {{m|Shadow Sky}} is in effect) are ???-type moves. Heck, there is even a sprite for an ???-type {{p|Arceus}}. The above [[User_talk:Spyspotter|comment]] is [[Special:Contributions/Spyspotter|supported]] by [[User:Spyspotter|Spyspotter]]. 14:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
+== "Hacked ??? type moves in 2nd/3rd-gen games would always do very little damage" ==
+...is this true? Because I'm pretty sure the games before the physical/special split determined whether a type was physical or special just based on where it was in the programming (types assigned to the numbers 00 through... I think it was 09 or so... were physical, types above that were special.)
+I know I made some moves ???-type in a Gold/Silver ROM hack once years ago, and I don't remember them doing abnormally low amounts of damage, but it's been a while... so I can't say off the top of my head whether they worked normally or not.  I do remember that Conversion 2 would crash the game if you tried to use it after being hit by an ???-type move, since ??? doesn't have any resistances defined for it.  I've never tried it in the 3rd-gen games, though.
+But anyway... the whole "since ??? type wasn't defined as physical or special, attacks of that type would always do very little damage" thing just doesn't sound likely to me.  It sounds like the kind of thing someone would make up after the fact, not understanding how the old physical/special type system actually worked.  Anyone have a source for this claim?? [[User:FnrrfYgmSchnish|FnrrfYgmSchnish]] ([[User talk:FnrrfYgmSchnish|talk]]) 22:26, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
+: While I can't say anything for Gen II, I can confirm that it's true for Gen III, as I've seen the code myself. It's a consequence of the fact that types, rather than moves, are assigned as physical or special. The damage calculator doesn't know whether to assign ???-type moves as physical or special (and thus, which set of offensive and defensive stats to use), and thus doesn't even try, simply returning 1 (not just "minimal" damage, exactly 1).--[[User:Goukazaru|Gou]] ([[User talk:Goukazaru|talk]]) 12:08, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
+::It's [https://github.com/pret/pokecrystal/blob/f0209d6ed6a0cd0e759dff49bdfe4d8171229c29/battle/effect_commands.asm#L2803 apparently] calculated as if it was Physical in Gen II (if only an attack's type is altered). [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 21:21, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
+:::Just for reference, in Generation IV, it seems it could also be exactly 2 damage, i.e. the +2 at the end of the damage formula, randomly varied; the main part of it is [https://github.com/pret/pokeemerald/blob/c0357cea46635ec3867d18e43b341fb7a4a2fef2/src/pokemon.c#L2366 apparently] just 0 rather than something based on (Sp)Atk/(Sp)Def. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 09:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
+==Struggle==
+From [[Generation II]] onwards, Struggle affected all Pokémon with normal damage. The only type move that can do this is the [[??? type]]. However, if one hacks Struggle onto a Pokémon's moveset, it appears to be a [[Normal-type]] move. Why?
+[[User:Dylanfrinkled314|Dylanfrinkled314]] ([[User talk:Dylanfrinkled314|talk]]) 01:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
+: It's just a normal-type move coded to do typeless damage, apparently. If you're asking why GF specifically coded this rather than use the ??? type for it... I've got nothing. [[User:Yamiidenryuu|Yamiidenryuu]] ([[User talk:Yamiidenryuu|talk]]) 17:30, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
+== Burn Up ==
+When a pure fire type uses Burn Up it becomes ??? type, I believe (page for Burn Up says "typeless" [http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Burn_Up_(move)]). Should probably be added.
+[[User:DrampasGrandpa|DrampasGrandpa]] ([[User talk:DrampasGrandpa|talk]]) 02:17, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
+:Having no type is not the same as having the type ???. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 06:24, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
+::You're wrong. It behaves as if it's ???-type, not "typeless" [[User:NinjaBoyLao|NinjaBoyLao]] ([[User talk:NinjaBoyLao|talk]]) 05:46, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
+:::If you look at the user interface, you can see that the Pokémon has no type (rather than the ??? type). If another Pokémon transforms into it, it becomes Normal type; if another Pokémon uses Reflect Type on it, Reflect Type fails; if the Pokémon uses Revelation Dance, it does not change the type of a Pokémon with Color Change and Conversion 2 will fail if that Revelation Dance was the last move used by the target. It is definitely not ??? type. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 06:04, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
+::::Well, I guess you shoulda just went ahead and said that the first time then. Useful to add to this page anyway, since there isn't a page for "typeless", as that was roughlythe same as this before generation V. {{unsigned|‎NinjaBoyLao}}
+:::::Typeless things don't belong on this page because typeless is not the same as ???. There's some discussion of typelessness at [[Type#Typeless|type → typeless]] at the moment, but if you want a better place for it, why not create a draft of a full article titled "{{redlink|User:NinjaBoyLao/Typeless|typeless}}" in your userspace? [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 16:49, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
+::::::I do not think "typeless" needs a page. There's a section on the [[type]] page, and I think that's enough. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 09:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
+== Roost and Weather Ball ==
+'''Roost''':As we've said [[Talk:Type#.22Typeless.22|here]], we can't be 100% perfectly sure without looking at the code, but I've done the research I said I might do, and it turns out that wherever it matters, it looks like Roost does '''not''' actually turn pure Flying types into ??? types in Gen IV. If it did make them that, the programmers took considerable effort to actively ''hide'' it wherever it matters, and that's just unlikely. It's far more likely people assumed it to be ???, just because all attacks are normally effective against it.
+Basically, there are two equally easy ways to implement the effect so far known:
+#If the user is (part) Flying-type, set the user's Flying type to ??? until the end of the turn
+#Make an exception to ignore the Flying type when the user has used Roost this turn
+Now, here's my information that ''clearly'' points to the second option, not the first:
+*[http://upcarchive.playker.info/0/upokecenter/dex/index.html%3Flang=en&move=355.html UPC says], in Gen IV, "attacks against user are normally effective against the Flying type". From past experience, they are ''very very'' reliable at technicalities, and they apparently inspected the code. Were it Option 1, I believe they would have said "changes Flying to ???", not what they actually say.{{tt|*|Note that this isn't proof, and that their wording doesn't explicitly contradict Option 1}}
+*When Ditto transforms to a pure Flying type in Gen IV that has just used Rest, it becomes Flying-type! We know Transform copies the target's ''current'' types (and just to be sure, I reconfirmed it while testing), and were the target ???, Ditto would become ??? (unless there's a very delibarate exception I mentioned earlier, one that is absent for Burn Up!). I just tested this, and a Fighting type move was not very effective against said Ditto.
+I will point to this explanation when I will be adjusting pages accordingly within the next few days.
+'''Weather Ball''':I have never played XD, but this page says Shadow Sky Weather Ball will change Color Change Pokémon to Normal type. Could someone confirm whether this is the case, and whether the game (or the battle engine) is roughly similar to core series? (Or at least answer whether it is countered by Counter a few sections up?) Unless there ''is'' a significant difference, that would point to it still being Normal-type, despite its type effectiveness always being 1x. It's basically the same case as Roost then, and I'd assume incautious ??? assumption as well. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 17:24, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
+::We've meanwhile found out that Weather Ball is indeed countered by Counter, and appears not to receive STAB (see [[User talk:Suic12-#Weather Ball]]). Consequently, I've removed Weather Ball from here. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 20:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
+:::Also just learned that Chosen [[Talk:Color Change (Ability)#Shadow moves|apparently]] had his Color Change Pokémon become Normal type with shadowy aura Weather Ball in 2013. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 20:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
+== Weather Ball ==
+Shouldn't the listing of Weather Ball also be placed in the spin offs category, seeing as this only mentions it's effects in Gale of Darkness?
+[[User:Maradi|Maradi]] ([[User talk:Maradi|talk]]) 20:12, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
+:I've removed it from this page (see the above section), so it's a moot discussion. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 20:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
+== Proposition: Clarify the difference between ??? and Typeless ==
+I feel like it would be useful to have a section clarifying the difference between the ??? type and being typeless. I was inspired since [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBap4fdvakk a recent video] by Moxie Boosted seems to conflate the two terms. Sure, they're functionally the same, but ??? in this article refers to the type used as placeholder for eggs and Curse pre-GenV (among other things), while typelessness refers to a Pokemon not possessing a type at all, in the case of Burn Up. Simply put, I think it's important to stress the difference between the two, as since they function the same mechanically, it's easy to think of them as the same. I'm a newbie at wikis though, so if anyone would like to weigh in with their opinion, that would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Sporecore|Sporecore]] ([[User talk:Sporecore|talk]]) 21:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)