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Talk:Phione (Pokémon): Difference between revisions
→Mythical Status
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::::Yes, I apologize. (I somehow thought HGSS was Gen V.) Everything else still holds true. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 17:26, 20 September 2016 (UTC) | ::::Yes, I apologize. (I somehow thought HGSS was Gen V.) Everything else still holds true. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 17:26, 20 September 2016 (UTC) | ||
:::::Yeah, at this point it looks like it's Mythical in every way that matters. In all circumstances that being Mythical has some substantive effect, Phione is treated the same way. We have Nintendo and the Circle of Legends tournament explicitly calling it Mythical, whereas we only have a Prima guide (unreliable) and a Ranger game against it (although I would be interested to see what Guardian Signs says in Japanese). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 15:12, 8 October 2016 (UTC) | :::::Yeah, at this point it looks like it's Mythical in every way that matters. In all circumstances that being Mythical has some substantive effect, Phione is treated the same way. We have Nintendo and the Circle of Legends tournament explicitly calling it Mythical, whereas we only have a Prima guide (unreliable) and a Ranger game against it (although I would be interested to see what Guardian Signs says in Japanese). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 15:12, 8 October 2016 (UTC) | ||
::::::Hey, just checking in. There's a clear consensus here, it's been more than three years and eight months since this conversation, and we're still considering it ambiguous. | |||
::::::The only three pieces of evidence we have against it are two things that predate the term Mythical (one of which doesn't even attempt to define it - "rare" in Guardian Signs has never been linked to Mythical Pokémon elsewhere and is never defined in-game... for all we know, it ''literally means rare,'' which is truer of the other Mythical Pokémon than Phione based on the way they're encountered in GS and their availability in the main series alike) and one site that doesn't ever claim that its list is comprehensive as far as I can tell. For that matter, everything in "Other" is just based on descriptive rules and patterns rather than anything official (and these are broken all the time in Pokémon - see Gen VII introducing evolving Legendary and Mythical Pokémon), ''most of which are also in Phione's favor anyway.'' | |||
::::::On the other hand, our "Evidence For" section has ''officially sources explicitly calling it Mythical six times.'' Is there '''any''' valid reason to continue to handle Phione the way we are, or can we please just call it Mythical like every official source? We can even leave the dispute section where it is for the sake of preserving the information (some of it is worthy trivia either way, like having the lowest BST of all fully evolved Mythical Pokémon), but it's no longer remotely a valid excuse to consider its Mythical status unclear and hasn't been for ''years.'' It's getting ridiculous. [[User:EpicDeino|EpicDeino]] ([[User talk:EpicDeino|talk]]) 20:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It's clear to me that this was missed, so I'm just prodding this again in the hopes that someone will see it this time. [[User:EpicDeino|EpicDeino]] ([[User talk:EpicDeino|talk]]) 21:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I'm just gonna bump this again because it's been another month. This is a really small change, but it's obviously not going to get done without approval, so it would be nice if it could get that approval... or some kind of acknowledgment... or an actual reason ''not'' to be done. [[User:EpicDeino|EpicDeino]] ([[User talk:EpicDeino|talk]]) 15:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I agree, either we have a reason not to, it should be stated Mythical by default.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span> <span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]] ([[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CCCCCC">Report To Me</span>]])''' 18:39, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Sorry, but I think this discussion (which involved staff member(s)) had the clear consensus that it's basically Mythical (and it continues to have that clear consensus). It is my impression that just nobody has done the appropriate edit(s) yet. [[User:Nescientist|Nescientist]] ([[User talk:Nescientist|talk]]) 18:33, 17 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
=="Phione can breed to produce another Phione; this is impossible with any other Legendary and Mythical Pokémon."== | =="Phione can breed to produce another Phione; this is impossible with any other Legendary and Mythical Pokémon."== | ||
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Official adventure guide Ashs quest from kanto to kalos says same thing. | Official adventure guide Ashs quest from kanto to kalos says same thing. | ||
== Is it really still disputed? == | |||
Let's look at the evidence against: | |||
It can breed to produce eggs - a similar logic can be applied to the cosmog line to claim they are not legendaries because they can evolve, but we know they are legendaries and this is simply an exception. Phione could be an exception to the rule that says mythical can't breed to produce themselves, so I don't think this is good evidence | |||
The HGSS guide - this was 7 years ago, and subsequent similar guides have stated it is mythical | |||
Pokemon Ranger - again this game is nearly 7 years old, and subsequent similar side games like Mystery Dungeon have stated that it's mythical. besides this only proves that it's not part of a grouping of pokemon known as in the game as "rare". While this "rare" grouping has overlap with mythical, that doesn't necessarily mean rare = mythical. even if rare=mythical - this game is now 7 years old. | |||
the mailbag - not only is this offline, but the most recent answer was a yes, indicating that the initial answer may have been a mistake. | |||
There are many more sources claiming it is mythical, and crucially these are all more recent than the sources claiming it isn't. the only official sources that stated 100% it isn't mythical (the mailbag and hgss guide), have subsequently been contradicted by similar official sources. ie the mailbag was updated, and there have been similar guides since the HGSS one claiming that it is mythical | |||
maybe we should just call a mythical pokemon, with a note somewhere saying that some older sources stated it wasn't, or that it's mythical status wasn't always clear [[User:Jmvb|JMVB - literally it doesn't stand for anything]] ([[User talk:Jmvb|talk]]) 11:58, 27 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
:This was discussed [[Talk:Phione (Pokémon)#Mythical Status (again)|a few sections ago]] and the consensus seemed to be agreement, including staff member SnorlaxMonster, but nothing has been done about it yet. I think perhaps the Editorial Board should be prodded to consider the change more hastily. [[User:Pumpkinking0192|Pumpkinking0192]] ([[User talk:Pumpkinking0192|talk]]) 15:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Mythical dispute, continued == | |||
This topic has been beaten into the ground but I think I should add my input. | |||
I recently added to the Mythical status section with information from the USUM guide book. It states, "As a basic rule, Legendary and Mythical Pokémon can’t find Eggs. However, there is just one exception to this rule: the Mythical Pokémon Manaphy", implying that Phione isn't Mythical or Legendary, because the only breeding Legendary or Mythical is Manaphy. | |||
However, interestingly, it contradicts itself in its own book... "Some Pokémon can’t be traded using the GTS or Wonder Trade— specifically, Mythical Pokémon brought from past games with Poké Transporter: Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Phione, Manaphy, Shaymin, Arceus, Victini, Keldeo, Meloetta, and Genesect." Here, Phione is explicitly listed as being Mythical. | |||
Now, when I brought this up to the bulbapedia discord, SnorlaxMonster said, "I think this is just an oversight where they forgot that Phione can breed to produce Phione. Phione is as good as confirmed to be Mythical." | |||
I think we should have some other mods' inputs on this --[[User:Celadonkey|Celadonkey]] 16:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
== Mythical revisited == | |||
Just more recent evidence for Phione as a Mythical | |||
* Pokémon HOME doesn't allow Phione to be traded via GTS. (i.e. suggesting Mythical) | |||
* Pokémon GO's GAME_MASTER file has Phione flagged as a Mythical Pokémon. However, Phione has not been officially released, but these flags historically have never been changed. Although a spin-off, PoGO's Pokémon's game data is made to not contradict the core series. | |||
I also want to point out that most of the evidence against it being Mythical are outdated from almost 10 years ago (e.g. breeding, obtaining multiple, etc). Generation VII even introduced Legendary and Mythical Pokémon that can evolve (e.g. Meltan). At this point, I don't think there is any more "dispute" over the Mythical status. | |||
[[User:TehPerson|TehPerson]] ([[User talk:TehPerson|talk]]) 17:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
:Old discussion, I know, but I want to just chime in as the person who started this whole mess and say that I agree, Phione is unquestionably a Mythical at this point, I think any disputing is long past. <small>- ''totally signed comment from [[User:Missingno. Master|Missingno. Master]] ([[User talk:Missingno. Master|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Missingno._Master|contribs]])'' </small> 10:13, 28 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
::At this point, I think it's safe to call Phione a Mythical Pokémon. [[User:Bwburke94|bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 00:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Mythical Status == | |||
The consensus for the past seven years of talk page discussion seems to be that Phione is indeed a Mythical Pokémon. The "evidence for" heavily outweighs the "evidence against", and much of the "evidence against" is old. I really don't think it's status is disputed anymore. Please comment below if you agree so that maybe we can make it even more clear to staff that we're ready for the change. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="orangered">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="darkviolet">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 04:07, 8 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
:At this point, the evidence for Phione being a Mythical Pokémon is overwhelming. The question is no longer whether it's Mythical; the question is how the page should mention the now-former dispute over its status. [[User:Bwburke94|bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 04:33, 9 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
::Bumping this. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="F34134">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="8334B7">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 04:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::Vote for.--'''[[User:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#CC0000">Rocket</span>]] [[User talk:Team Rocket Grunt|<span style="color:#666666">Grunt</span>]]''' 11:45, 18 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::Agreed too.--[[User:MissDelibirda|MissDelibirda]] ([[User talk:MissDelibirda|talk]]) 15:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::::Total and complete agreement. Unquestionably a Mythical. <small>- ''totally signed comment from [[User:Missingno. Master|Missingno. Master]] ([[User talk:Missingno. Master|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Missingno._Master|contribs]])'' </small> 22:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
In the new Pokemon video, it shows Phione as part of the mythicals Pokemon. {{unsigned|TsukiDrifloon}} | |||
:Is there a reason at this point why the page still says it's disputed? It's... pretty clearly a Mythical at this point. And if you remember, I'm the one who started this dispute to begin with. I was wrong, simple as that. Can we not edit the page to actually refer to it as a Mythical now? <small>- ''totally signed comment from [[User:Missingno. Master|Missingno. Master]] ([[User talk:Missingno. Master|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Missingno._Master|contribs]])'' </small> 18:04, 26 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
::I read somewhere on here that the issue was no longer that its status was disputed, it was how we should document its formerly-disputed status. [[User:Zurqoxn|Zurqoxn]] ([[User talk:Zurqoxn|talk]]) 13:25, 13 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::According to Kogoro, there's still some recent discrepancies that are holding it back. [https://discord.com/channels/202737349996576769/206616744180056065/996191053428306031 Here's the conversation on Discord]. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="#00d1bc">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="#006699">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 20:20, 13 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::I'm a few months late but I just want to point out that I absolutely don't agree there are any "recent discrepancies", that conversation only makes mention of an oddity in HOME that was fixed three years ago and now even HOME treats it as Mythical (just like every other recently-released game that distinguishes between Mythicals and non-Mythicals). Honestly I don't think there's any further deliberating on this that needs to be done, can we please just start calling Phione mythical already? [[User:Bandana Hewer Dee|Bandana Hewer Dee]] ([[User talk:Bandana Hewer Dee|talk]]) 10:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::: Agreed, if is HOME no longer treating it inconsistently in trades/the GTS, that makes the most recent "evidence against" in an actual Pokémon game close to a decade old (Pokémon Bank not giving it a shiny background), with the only recent, (if you consider 2020 recent), "evidence against" being from an extremely "questionably canon" piece of media, the "Pokémon: Kids Winter Fest" minigame website, which is now shutdown, and only lasted a year. [[User:Atrius97|Atrius97]] ([[User talk:Atrius97|talk]]) 04:09, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::Sounds pretty cut and dry to me. <small>- ''totally signed comment from [[User:Missingno. Master|Missingno. Master]] ([[User talk:Missingno. Master|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Missingno._Master|contribs]])'' </small> 02:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
{{Indent}}Just chiming in to make it clear that I still support Phione being considered Mythical (because it is). [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="#00d1bc">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="#006699">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 08:40, 25 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:So given that there's a very clear consensus in favour of Phione being mythical (and there has been for several years now), can we start editing the articles at this point to reflect that? Or are we waiting for some kind of go-ahead? [[User:Bandana Hewer Dee|Bandana Hewer Dee]] ([[User talk:Bandana Hewer Dee|talk]]) 15:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Waiting on approval from the {{bp|Editorial Board}}. Someone could probably poke one of the board members about it. [[User:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><font color="#00d1bc">'''Land'''</font>]][[User talk:Landfish7|<span style="font-family:Tahoma"><small><font color="#006699">'''fish7'''</font></small></span></span>]] 18:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::For whatever it may be worth, SnorlaxMonster (a member of the board) expressed support for this earlier on this talk page ([[#Mythical Status (again)|here]] and [[#Mythical dispute, continued|here]]). [[User:Bandana Hewer Dee|Bandana Hewer Dee]] ([[User talk:Bandana Hewer Dee|talk]]) 06:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::The page has been edited to accommodate this approval. I personally would've probably voted for "yes" as well. --[[User:FinnishPokéFan92|FinnishPokéFan92]] ([[User talk:FinnishPokéFan92|talk]]) 08:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC) | |||