Talk:Mom (Kanto)

Split

This article should be split into Mom (Generation I) and Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!), as this article currently covers two different characters, each with different appearances, quotes, and possible children. Landfish7 13:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I think that split makes some amount of sense. However, "Mom (Generation I)" definitely doesn't work as a title, because Red/Leaf's Mom appears in Generations 2-4 as well. I think there are rare cases we can make an exception to titling accuracy and create dabtags based on the game the subject is most notable for rather than considering all of the games they appear in, but that's definitely not the case here. I think you could make a case for "Mom (Generations I and III)" (since she's more notable in the games in which she is the player's mother than games in which she is Red's mother), but if you're going that route, "Mom (Generations I-IV)" is more technically correct without being substantially longer or wordier.

If we want to properly include Origins too, something like "Mom (of Red/Leaf)" (unsure whether the slash should instead be "and", and whether it makes sense to include "of")—or maybe even just "Mom (of Red)"—is probably the cleanest way to do it. --SnorlaxMonster 13:34, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

At that point, couldn't our disambigaution of the page be "Red's Mom" (barring capitalization)? That feels reasonably the same, and I wouldn't think we need to use dab tags every time we have to document things that conflict with one another. ^Maverick _Nate

I don't feel "Mom (Generation I)" is ambiguous about what character it's referring to. Landfish7 14:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the general idea of the LGPE Mom having her own separate article.

It comes to mind that Red also exists in the LGPE universe and is most likely not Chase/Elaine's brother, so Red's actual mom must exist somewhere separately from Chase/Elaine's mother in the same universe.

I was considering if maybe Mom (Kanto) should be kept as a catch-all article for all kinds of mothers of Kanto player characters, but then I remembered that we don't have Mom (Unova) as a catch-all article for all the separate moms of Unova player characters like that.

I'm not a fan of the exact title "Mom (Generation I)". It could be considered a little bit ambiguous since it might imply that the Mom (FRLG) is located in a separate page too. But to be fair, I'm sure that if we used (Generation I), then the intro of this article would make it clear that the page is about the Kanto mom from Generations I-IV anyway.

The title "Mom (Generations I-IV)" has the problem that it's not super accurate either, since there are also a bunch of other Moms in Generations I-IV. We could make the case that it's specifically for the only Mom that does appear in all four generations, but this title is not very future-proof in case some new Kanto remake is released for Generation XII or something.

The title "Mom (Red, Blue, Yellow, FireRed, and LeafGreen)" is pretty long. I wonder if we would want to abbreviate this one to "Mom (RBYFRLG)".

The title "Red's Mom" is understandable but then Leaf is missing. The title "Red or Leaf's Mom" is accurate, but it would raise the question of moving all other Mom articles into the same system for consistency, like "Lucas or Dawn's Mom".

I'm thinking if maybe we can keep the current title "Mom (Kanto)" but only for the mom that appears in RBYFRLG, while having a separate page for the LGPE Mom.

I assume that in any case, the LGPE Mom will use the long article title "Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!)". We use that in some other pages like List of locations by index number (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!), List of event Pokémon distributions (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!), and List of clothing (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!). --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Alternatively, we could keep the page and modify the lede to make it clear that this refers to two different characters that play the same role.

Two characters named Mom (Japanese: おかあさん mother) serve as the mother of the player character in Kanto. One is the mother of Red^RBY^GSC^FRLG^HGSS or Leaf^FRLG, and the other is the mother of Chase^PE or Elaine^PE.

At the beginning of the Generation I games, Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen, and Pokémon: Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!, the player's mother will inform them that Professor Oak wants to see them. After that, she will heal the player's Pokémon when talked to. Red's mother also appears in the Generation II games and Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, telling the player how worried she is about Red, but also how proud she is of him.

--Landfish7 17:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I like Daniel Carrero's suggestion that we give LGPE Mom her own page, keep this page titled Mom (Kanto), and just have a hat note at the top that says something like "this page is about the player's Mom in RGBYFRLG, for the player's Mom in LGPE see ..." It'd feel weird linking to a page called Mom (Generation I) on a different page specifically talking about her appearance in HGSS or something. Storm Aurora (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with the point that it would feel weird linking to a page called Mom (Generation I) while talking about her appearance in HGSS.

That's nice, I like the idea of using Mom (Kanto) for this version while keeping the LGPE Mom in a separate article.

I think that is a bit like how we have Old man (Kanto) for a specific notable old man in Kanto. That article is not exactly about all the old men in Kanto. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 08:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I think keeping Red's mother at "Mom (Kanto)" and splitting Chase/Elaine's mother to "Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!)" makes sense. And yeah, I agree with the points about the problems with trying to list generations other than Generation I in the article title—clearly that won't work. --SnorlaxMonster 09:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent) - I still feel Mom (Kanto) doesn't properly disambiguate, but maybe we could link to the Mom (LGPE) page from that main page as a workaround? Landfish7 12:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that is something we discussed above too. We can link from the Mom (Kanto) to Mom (LGPE), most likely as a hatnote at the top of the article. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, if we did have Red/Leaf's mother at "Mom (Kanto)", we would definitely need to have a hatnote for the Let's Go character. I think the only feasible alternative to "Mom (Kanto)" is explicitly specifying that she is the mother of Red and Leaf (e.g. Mom (of Red/Leaf)). --SnorlaxMonster 16:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

"Mom (Kanto)" seems fine. To put it another way, We have the content for Pokemon fossils on the base title "Fossil", despite there being another item that could be called "Fossil": "Fossil (TCG)". We do this because the more relevant, important item should take precedence, and is the thing most likely being searched for. In this instance with the player character's mom, we have one who appears in 12 games over 4 generations "Red/Leaf's Mom" and we have one that appears in two games in one generation "Chase/Elaine's Mom". The base title we have is "Mom (Kanto)", so the item with the most relevancy should get the title, with a hat note pointing to the other one (which can be named "Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!)" no problem). ^Maverick _Nate 09:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I have drafted up this split (proper titles will be used when mainspaced).[1][2] Landfish7 12:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to state here that I don't understand why we would choose a title like "Kanto" that's confusing because it overlaps with LGPE over a title like "Gen I" that's confusing because it's limited. IMO the former is easily the worse option. If people don't agree that Gen I is better/good enough, then we can (and should) find a better option

Personally, I think Red/Leaf would be just fine for the parenthetical and easily avoids the problems with the above two options. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I like using "Mom (Kanto)" for Red/Leaf's Mom but I would not mind discussing this and other possible titles too.

Here's another idea to be considered. If we list all the games like this, the titles are about the same length:

Mom (Red, Blue, Yellow, FireRed, and LeafGreen)
Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!)

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 05:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

"Mom (Red, Blue, Yellow, FireRed, and LeafGreen)" Also appears in Gold, Silver, Crystal, HeartGold, and SoulSilver. ^Maverick _Nate 07:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

That is true. She also appears in Origins. She may also eventually appear in other future games and media. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe it could be "Mom (Kanto)" and "Mom (Let's Go)"? --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 09:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Finnish: (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) is the current standard for things that are disambiguated and in LGPE. Landfish7 10:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

It is true that this is the current standard, but allow me to check what are other options of naming standards anyway.

Possible ideas for the title of the article about the second Mom:

Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!)
Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Eevee!)
Mom (Let's Go!)
Mom (Let's Go)
Mom (LGPE)
Mom (PE)
Mom (Generation VII Kanto)
Mom (Kanto) (Generation VII)
Mom (Chase/Elaine)
Mom (Chase or Elaine)
Chase/Elaine's Mom
Chase or Elaine's Mom

Arguably, they are all equally clear. We might want to consider using a short title which should be easier to type than the longer ones.

If we use an abbreviation like (LGPE) or (PE), that wouldn't be the first time that an article about a character uses abbreviation dabtag.

We have "Alpha (CPIW)" instead of "Alpha (Omega Ruby Crimson Passion and Alpha Sapphire Indigo Wisdom)".

On the other hand, as mentioned above, using (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) would be consistent with other existing pages that use titles like that as well:

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Since (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) is consistent with all other pages using this dabtag, I don't think it's really useful to open up the practicality of that dabtag as a part of this conversation. It's important to keep the conversation focused and productive.

Bringing it back on topic, I've synthesized all the publicly available comments on this, and 80-90% of commenters are generally fine with/prefer "Mom (Kanto)" and "Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!)" as a solution to this page. Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Is_there_a_primary_topic? details why this is an acceptable practice. Additionally, it's consistent with our other established naming conventions, isn't introducing a new unorthodox page name that would be difficult to find, and any issues we have with it can be solved with hatnotes linking to one another explaining the issue in text. ^Maverick _Nate 10:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like we are going to use Mom (Kanto) and Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!).

However, this discussion has been basically 100% about arguing whether we should use current naming standards or change them into new standards, so I'm honestly not sure why Maverick Nate saw anything wrong with my list of alternate page titles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my first guess would be that maybe Maverick was considering this discussion finished and the titles settled, so there was no need to discuss any other titles.

In the public Discord, it has also been noted that if we decided to use Mom (Red/Leaf), then maybe we should use Mom (Chase/Elaine) as well.

After this discussion is done, I think I'd probably like to discuss somewhere else about moving all the 5 or 6 pages from (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) to the shorter (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Eevee!). Maybe I should have brought this up years ago when those pages were starting to appear. I never liked the overly long (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) if (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Eevee!) is an option. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 04:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Your assessment about what this conversation is about is incorrect. I said what I said before because some of the topics being brought up are making the discussion so unfocused that we are no longer talking about the problem we are currently trying to fix: splitting a page that is incorrectly considering two characters as the same person. The title Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) properly disambiguates that character and is consistent with what we already do across the wiki, so bringing up irrelevant topics like "(Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) is too long and we should change it across the wiki by abbreviating it" is making it impossible to address individual incremental improvements on a page by page level. There is a time and a place to discuss the viability of specific dabtags, and a conversation about how to split a mistaken page simply isn't it. ^Maverick _Nate 09:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

When and where can we discuss the idea of renaming all the 5 or 6 pages with (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!) into the shorter (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Eevee!)? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 09:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel, Bulbapedia:Editor's Hub is always a good place to discuss broader topics.

Regarding Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Is_there_a_primary_topic?, this does not show that "Mom (Kanto)" is a "primary topic". That page is talking about disambiguating pages overall...in this case, the pages that would need to be disambiguated are pages that could be titled "mom", so if we're looking for a primary topic, it'd be, which is the primary mom. Wikipedia does not consider things like, which is the primary Kanto mom. (In short, you're not really supposed to disambiguate something that's already disambiguated.)

That said, it was pointed out on Discord that we already sorta do this overlapping disambiguation with things like Lugia (Lugia (anime) and Lugia (M02)) or Selene (Selene (game) and Selene (Masters)). I personally don't feel like those are quite the same, and I still think it would be best if we just used a less problematic parenthetical like Red/Leaf, but there is at least some truth that on Bulbapedia we do do a few things like this.

I would also highlight, I think the issues with with RBYFRLG and Red/Leaf are mostly hypothetical and we shouldn't weight those too heavily (unless we think they're substantially likely). I do think those are still the best options we have for this page. Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you about mentioning the Editor's Hub. I understand that we'll probably want to settle this issue about splitting Mom (Kanto) rather than discuss the titles of a bunch of other pages at the moment.

If we started using Mom (Red/Leaf), then I would ask if it would affect any other mom pages like Mom (Lucas/Dawn) for consistency. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel We cannot use names like "Mom (Lucas/Dawn)" for every instance because there are times when, like Brenden and May, where the player character is Brenden, Brendon's mom is Norman's wife and May's mom is Professor Birch's wife. Saying "Mom (Brendon/May)" doesn't properly disambiguate between the two characters.

Another, more appropriate place to bring up style and conventions changes would be the talk page for the Bulbapedia:Manual of style. Specific uses for dabtags is a 20-year old style choice written into the manual of style, so if we have issues with individual dabtags, the solution to the problem is to address the root of the problem, not add to it by disregard our own help guides. ^Maverick _Nate 13:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Consensus still favors the split at the titles "Mom (Kanto)" and "Mom (Let's Go, Pikachu! and Let's Go, Eevee!)", therefore, I plan to move forward with this split within the next day or so. Landfish7 11:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Page has been split. Landfish7 14:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy with this choice. My suggestion of "Mom (Let's Go)" also included this form, as I know it to be the standard Bulbapedia naming method. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 14:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)