Eldest sister
Why my edit was reverted? The concept art is quite clear and EXPLICITLY say the Melony's daughter is the eldest one.
Comment number 4, explicitly say her to be the elder one.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- That says "eldest daughter". It doesn't mean she's the eldest among the siblings. --超龍「Chao」 02:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Would be quite a dumb statment since is literally the only daughter. You don't say "the eldest daughter" if you have only one daughter, unless you mean she is the eldest of all the siblings--Zarxiel94 (talk) 06:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- That's still basically making an assumption i.e. speculation. You could just as easily argue that you wouldn't say "eldest daughter" when you mean "eldest child". Landfish7 06:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Is not an assumption or a speculation. The statment "eldest daughter" make no sense if you are refering to all your daughter, but you have no other one. The statment make sense only if is refering to all the siblings. Since she is the only daughter, why you need to specify her to be the eldest between all the daughters if she is the only one? Make no sense.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Do note that this is a translation. The term 長女 "eldest daughter" can be used to refer to an only daughter. Eldest in this context only refers to the birth order of the girls with no regard to whether a boy is born before or after her. --超龍「Chao」 07:20, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- In addition to what Chao is saying, the text only makes mention of 4 of her children (despite clearly having 5). Gordie is pretty clearly not being acknowledged, so there's no reason to assume that she's older than Gordie (especially just by looking at the picture). PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 07:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- But Gordie is still in the image. And as far as we know, Gordie could be just tall and the sister short, is not that absurd. The "eldest daughter" is the closest thing to a official confirmation we have for Melony's siblings age order, while say "she is shorter then she is younger then Gordie" is a speculation, since exist short people. My GF is way shorter then me, despite she being 1 year and half older then me.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Please read Chao's statement that says "The term 長女 'eldest daughter' can be used to refer to an only daughter". You're speculating that she's older than Gordie simply due to it saying she's the eldest daughter (which would still be true regardless since Gordie is a guy), despite Gordie not even being mentioned in the text. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 07:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, then where is said Gordie being older then her? Because at that point that is speculation too, the difference is at least what I'm saying have a base--Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't really have an issue with it being changed to simply "unnamed sister", but the point is that this discussion is only happening due to how the statement was translated. As noted by Chao, the term "長女" can be used to describe the eldest daughter in a family, even if she is the only daughter and also has an older brother.
- Additionally, as stated before, the text only makes mention of all of Melony's chidren not named Gordie. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 08:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- There is not said anywhere the concept art are excluding Gordie... even because... Gordie is literally there. Gordie is stated to be Melony's son, while the others never appeared, so the concept art need to specify who are the others, since Gordie is specified in the game, but the others don't. I still think the concept art meant she is the eldest of ALL Melony's siblings, and even if isn't, Gordie being the oldest one isn't supported by anything, girls can be easly way shorter then boys despite the age--Zarxiel94 (talk) 08:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- "There is not said anywhere the concept art are excluding Gordie... even because... Gordie is literally there. Gordie is stated to be Melony's son, while the others never appeared, so the concept art need to specify who are the others, since Gordie is specified in the game, but the others don't."
- Gordie is in the picture, not the text. If the text was really including Gordie, it would logically say she has 4 sons, not 3. This is a very clear omission.
- "I still think the concept art meant she is the eldest of ALL Melony's siblings, and even if isn't, Gordie being the oldest one isn't supported by anything, girls can be easly way shorter then boys despite the age".
- 1. I don't believe I ever brought up her height, but if you want to go that angle... the problem is that she is visibly younger than Gordie as well, not simply in terms of height. Be honest, if the "eldest sister" line was not present, would your first impression have been that she is older than Gordie?
- 2. You keep stressing the "eldest sister" angle, despite it having already being stated several times that it can easily refer to an only daughter that also has an older brother. Additionally, as I must stress once again, the text omits Gordie and only mentions the other 3 brothers, so this would still be shaky grounds to claim that she's older than him specifically. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 09:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Becuase point 5 is refering to the twins. I don't see why we should exclude Gordie... he is literally pictured there. For the age, is not like Pokémon had people that don't look like they actual age. Like Cyrus being 27 years old despite look way older or Lusamine that look way younger. So, both height and appearence is not a proof. I would assume she was younger then Gordie if wasn't for the text? Yhea, totally, but the text is there. Saying what someone would assume based on appearence is not a proof. Exemple, saying what people would assume what Alolan Exeggutor's type would be don't change the fact that is Dragon. And I don't get why we must be totally sure the text are omitting Gordie despite him being pictured there. What you expected the text would say? "point 6-Gordie"? Thanks concept art, I know who is Gordie. Here I see just assumption of her being younger based literally on nothing, no one posted a single proof of source that state she is younger then Gordie, but just say "but the concept art is excluding Gordie" despite him being literally there.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 09:53, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- There is not said anywhere the concept art are excluding Gordie... even because... Gordie is literally there. Gordie is stated to be Melony's son, while the others never appeared, so the concept art need to specify who are the others, since Gordie is specified in the game, but the others don't. I still think the concept art meant she is the eldest of ALL Melony's siblings, and even if isn't, Gordie being the oldest one isn't supported by anything, girls can be easly way shorter then boys despite the age--Zarxiel94 (talk) 08:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, then where is said Gordie being older then her? Because at that point that is speculation too, the difference is at least what I'm saying have a base--Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Please read Chao's statement that says "The term 長女 'eldest daughter' can be used to refer to an only daughter". You're speculating that she's older than Gordie simply due to it saying she's the eldest daughter (which would still be true regardless since Gordie is a guy), despite Gordie not even being mentioned in the text. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 07:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- But Gordie is still in the image. And as far as we know, Gordie could be just tall and the sister short, is not that absurd. The "eldest daughter" is the closest thing to a official confirmation we have for Melony's siblings age order, while say "she is shorter then she is younger then Gordie" is a speculation, since exist short people. My GF is way shorter then me, despite she being 1 year and half older then me.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Is not an assumption or a speculation. The statment "eldest daughter" make no sense if you are refering to all your daughter, but you have no other one. The statment make sense only if is refering to all the siblings. Since she is the only daughter, why you need to specify her to be the eldest between all the daughters if she is the only one? Make no sense.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 07:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- That's still basically making an assumption i.e. speculation. You could just as easily argue that you wouldn't say "eldest daughter" when you mean "eldest child". Landfish7 06:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Would be quite a dumb statment since is literally the only daughter. You don't say "the eldest daughter" if you have only one daughter, unless you mean she is the eldest of all the siblings--Zarxiel94 (talk) 06:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
"Becuase point 5 is refering to the twins. I don't see why we should exclude Gordie... he is literally pictured there."
It doesn't say anything about them being twins, and it also says "Three sons". You're now stating that it's about things that aren't even mentioned in the text.
"For the age, is not like Pokémon had people that don't look like they actual age. Like Cyrus being 27 years old despite look way older or Lusamine that look way younger. So, both height and appearence is not a proof. I would assume she was younger then Gordie if wasn't for the text? Yhea, totally, but the text is there. Saying what someone would assume based on appearence is not a proof."
I knew you would use this as a counterargument. Obviously age is not always reflective of appearance, but it's still a good starting point. We can easily see that the brothers are younger than Gordie despite it not being explicitly stated. The sister is obviously a slightly more extreme example, but as you just admitted yourself, you would've assumed that she is younger than Gordie as well if not for the text. As for the text itself, it must once again be reiterated that the term "長女" can be used to describe the eldest daughter in a family, even if she is the only daughter and also has an older brother. I already stated earlier that I would be okay with changing it to simply "unnamed sister", but the entire crux of your argument that she is older than Gordie is based on a flawed premise.
"Exemple, saying what people would assume what Alolan Exeggutor's type would be don't change the fact that is Dragon."
We're talking about humans, not Pokémon.
"And I don't get why we must be totally sure the text are omitting Gordie despite him being pictured there. What you expected the text would say? "point 6-Gordie"? Thanks concept art, I know who is Gordie.
The text is omitting him. Once again, if the text was at all talking about Gordie, it would obviously either say "4 sons" or, as you stated, simply mention him by himself.
"Here I see just assumption of her being younger based literally on nothing, no one posted a single proof of source that state she is younger then Gordie, but just say "but the concept art is excluding Gordie" despite him being literally there.
Why are you claiming that I said things I never did? I said Gordie was excluded from the text of the concept art (which is true), not the picture. It is simply a fact that he is not mentioned in the text, despite being present in the picture. I also never definitively stated that she is younger than Gordie; I simply stated that she is clearly visibly younger than him appearance-wise (which you even agreed with, so I'm confused on why you're saying it's "based on nothing"). The point is simply that you're basing it off text that isn't even explicitly saying she's older than Gordie. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 10:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I said "twins" just to make it easy to identify them, if they are or not is not relevant for what we are talking about.
- How you said 'CAN be' not 'it ONLY be', that mean that what I'm saying can still be true. I would be fine to a simple "unnamed sister" actually, because that "younger" is pure speculation.
- Becuase Gordie is his own character, why the text would say something about him when he have his own concept art? And if they want to omit him, why depict him? The point 5 said "three sons" refering to the 'apparent' twins (again, I call them in that way just to identify them easier) and for confirm their gender, while Gordie's gender is already confirmed.
- Becuase appearence is not a proof, Pokémon already showed characters appearence and actual age could be extremly different.--Zarxiel94 (talk) 11:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- "How you said 'CAN be' not 'it ONLY be', that mean that what I'm saying can still be true. I would be fine to a simple "unnamed sister" actually, because that "younger" is pure speculation."
- I am fine with changing it to "unnamed sister", but claiming that she's the eldest child based on Japanese text that is in the context of her simply being the eldest daughter (which, again, would still be true regardless of Gordie's age) is no less speculation, which is the main point I'm arguing here.
- "Becuase Gordie is his own character, why the text would say something about him when he have his own concept art?"
- Regardless of him being his own character, he's still one of Melony's sons. Even as just as an offhand mention, it wouldn't be difficult or out of place to simply say she has 4 sons as a generic statement. It would still confirm the genders of the other children not named Gordie.
- "Becuase appearence is not a proof, Pokémon already showed characters appearence and actual age could be extremly different."
- Yeah, but the entire idea of his sister being older than him is based on misinterpreting the Japanese text. It simply said that she's the eldest sister and it is often used regardless of the ages of her brothers or even if she has any other sisters. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 11:43, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- But I think everyone can agree at this point that not only there is no confirmation about who is the oldest and we don't know 100% sure if the concept are is refering to the daughter to be the oldest of all the siblings or just the oldest of daughter. So a simple "unnamed sister" would be more correct--Zarxiel94 (talk) 12:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)