Talk:Friend

Bede and Silver

Are these two rivals actually referred to as friends in-game? They are always quite antagonistic towards the player. CyberDragonM (talk) 16:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Both Silver and Bede soften up considerably by the end of the game. Additionally, in Masters EX, Ethan (who represents the player character from the Johto games) refers to Silver as a friend. I'm not sure if Bede is ever directly referred to as one, but he's certainly not any worse than Silver. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 01:57, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

When I had originally made the page, I just took all of the rivals over with assumption that most of them had considered the player their friend at some point (and with intention of turning the rival page into something more strict since people's definitions tend to differ as to what rival actually means). However it has crossed my mind that some of these characters listed (most notably, Silver and Bede, as well as Klara/Avery and arguably Blue in generation 1/3). Bede's present in the friends in galar card (however these cards tend to show characters that may not actually be in the group). Masters, as mentioned above, tends to put these characters under friendships as well. I'm fine with axing some characters from the listings though if people are uncomfortable with some of the more ruder characters being described as such. TrainerSplash (talk) 08:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the list, I'd say the only ones currently listed that could be called into question within the context of the core games themselves are:

1. Blue (while he was childhood friends with Red and is once again friends with him as of Gen 7, that's not really the case within the Kanto games themselves where he's arrogant and condescending)

2. Silver (easily the meanest of the characters listed)

3. N (his goals place him in direct opposition with the protagonist during BW)

4. Gladion (even by the end of the main story, he states that he's not friends with the protagonist)

5. Bede (rude and arrogant towards the protagonist for most of the game)

6. Klara/Avery (antagonistic towards the protagonist during the first half of Isle of Armor and even tries to cheat during their final storyline battle)

I'm not necessarily advocating for any of their removals, but I think they're the only characters listed that might be worth debating on.

On a similar note, for characters not currently listed, I'd say Adaman and Irida may be worth discussing: Both of them befriend the player early on and are prominent throughout the entirety of the game. Additionally, they're depicted alongside Rei and Akari on the "Friends in Hisui" card, and while I recognize that the "Friends in" cards aren't always perfect (Volkner being listed with the Sinnoh group is easily the most bizarre one), I don't think it's inaccurate to say that they're the four main characters, not to mention that they've been depicted together in other official artwork as well. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 11:27, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Apparently Blue being the player's friend was always considered an English translation only thing, so based on that I'm not sure if he should be included. If this information should count (and it should be mentioned somewhere at the very least still). I have heard the argument before that the Let's Go version of Blue should probably be mentioned instead, since he continuously interacts with the player. That being said, I think Blue is super egotistical and full of himself, that he comes off as abrasive and rude, but I don't think he dislikes Red or vise versa.

I don't think Gladion is comparable to the others on the list at all, his demeanor is much different based on the other characters mentioned here that may be considered rude or mean when he's just a guy who wanted to be left alone and figure things out on his own. It is true that Gladion doesn't consider Hau or the player his friend, but that's at the time of the game where he was actually realizing his situation and had people backing him up, he didn't have friends before. Also the way I partially see it is that the player considers Gladion their friend. Gladion seems to partake in the player's activities as well and seems interested in their position as champion in both SM and USUM. and once again he appears in the "friends in alola" card. Those cards seem to feature the player character (with exception for the alola one for some reason) and all relevant rivals in the base game.

I don't like using Masters as the main go-to with things, but it should be noted that Hilbert considers N his friend. I have no clue if N shares the same sentiment, but I cannot find any quotes from him in either BW or B2W2. Knowing his change of attitude and thoughts though I would still consider him such a group.

I have *also* considered adding Irida and Adaman to the group, but I wasn't necessarily sure of it. They're definitely more compelling of a case than say Silver or Bede. TrainerSplash (talk) 22:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"Apparently Blue being the player's friend was always considered an English translation only thing, so based on that I'm not sure if he should be included."

Blue being the player's childhood friend is true in the Japanese manuals of the Generation I games as well (which can be seen in the Terminology section of his page).

"I don't think Gladion is comparable to the others on the list at all, his demeanor is much different based on the other characters mentioned here that may be considered rude or mean when he's just a guy who wanted to be left alone and figure things out on his own."

His demeanor isn't really the issue here; the fact that he explicitly claims "we aren't friends" as late as Mount Lanakila (a.k.a. the Victory Road of the game) is still grounds for debating his inclusion at least a little bit. I agree that he's not openly a jerk like Silver or Bede, but he's not particularly friendly for most of the game either.

"And once again he appears in the 'friends in alola' card."

I'm aware of that, but Bede also appears on the "Friends in Galar" card.

"Also the way I partially see it is that the player considers Gladion their friend."

"I don't like using Masters as the main go-to with things, but it should be noted that Hilbert considers N his friend."

As I mentioned earlier, the same is true for Ethan in Masters EX as well in regards to Silver. I don't mind if we use Masters EX as a source, but we should at least be consistent about it.

"Knowing his change of attitude and thoughts though I would still consider him such a group."

N is still clearly antagonistic towards the player within BW themselves up until their final battle and definitely distinct from Cheren and Bianca in that regard. It's not really accurate to say they were "friends" for most of BW, which is what I meant by "within the context of the core games themselves".

Just to reiterate this point, I'm not necessarily advocating for any of the aforementioned characters' removals, just that they're not as ironclad as the rest of the list. I'm mainly just bringing up points that might be worth talking about.

"I have *also* considered adding Irida and Adaman to the group, but I wasn't necessarily sure of it. They're definitely more compelling of a case than say Silver or Bede."

Having recently played through Legends: Arceus, I can definitely say that both of them are way more prevalent in the storyline than the opposite player character, so I do feel like they deserve to be listed as well. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, a couple more points I'd like to address:

"I have heard the argument before that the Let's Go version of Blue should probably be mentioned instead, since he continuously interacts with the player."

I admittedly haven't played Let's Go yet, but taking a glance at his quotes section, it doesn't really seem like he interacts with the player any more than Platinum Cynthia (who is actually listed on the "Friends in Sinnoh" card).

"That being said, I think Blue is super egotistical and full of himself, that he comes off as abrasive and rude, but I don't think he dislikes Red or vise versa."

At the very least, however, they can't really be considered "friends" by the time of the Kanto games themselves (although as mentioned earlier, they were childhood friends). PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't particularly feel like "friend" has to pertain to a certain moment in time as long during the game's time, regardless if they had a falling out or gaining over the course of the game. I think being friendly and being a friend are different topics to consider. Really I think we should be considering the trend that applies to the characters rather than taking things literally (however, I do think a character saying "we are/aren't friends" is very appropriate thing to consider, but I think it also just comes down to portrayal) As far as I know there's only the two times Gladion says they aren't friends with you. But no other character agrees or denies with this information, if this is enough sure. But I can't find anything on N says he is/isn't your friend either. So if it comes down to antagonist behavior, that would cross out a majority of the characters (except for maybe Gladion and Blue, Gladion of which says he doesn't view you as an enemy either, you're just acquaintances). TrainerSplash (talk) 00:10, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

(Resetting indent) It looks like the conversation isn’t over yet and people have just stopped talking. Unless the consensus is removing those seven? CyberDragonM (talk) 08:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

We have not decided whether to include Masters EX as a source. Perhaps we could separate “in the core series games” from “in Masters EX”? This would allow Silver to not be listed as a friend of the player character in the games, which he is not, but it would allow N and Marnie to stay visible. Probably N and Marnie could stay hidden on the table just in case a quote is found within the core series games. CyberDragonM (talk) 17:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It probably should have been documented in talk pages, but we went through some edits on the rival page and discussed whether or not masters should count on the discord. My original proposal on my sand box page originally had the characters from Masters listed beneath the main chart so they still had credibility but weren't mentioned int he core series directly. I think we just decided that Masters information is okay as long as it's cited to be from Masters. Amiosi and I have updated that page with those sources and kept them on the main chart, and then I reflected similar changes to this page. However, I'm still skeptical myself with these changes and would just prefer a small list since this site seems to flip back and forth on whether or not Masters info should be mentioned in discussion on core series (it's complimentary material, some things are non canon, but others aren't). The issue with Masters that I have right now is that some characters consider each other friends, but the same statement isn't made back for some characters (apparently Ethan considers Lyra a rival, but Lyra has yet to make such a related claim), does this automatically mean both of them are rivals, is only Lyra rival or is this just a silly thing he said and neither of them actually fit the bill of rival?, Of course this happens in the core series too, I recently found out that Irida actually calls the player her friend, but as far as I'm aware, Adaman does not, but I feel like both of them should be under that label, much like Lyra and Ethan both being considered rivals. TrainerSplash (talk) 18:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, Thank you for working this out. CyberDragonM (talk) 18:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Went through the Masters text dump to find all the instances of characters referring to others as their friends. Annoyingly, a lot of times the characters are rather vague about which "friends" they're referring to. But regarding the edge cases that have been previously brought up, I found supporting evidence in Masters for most of them being called friends:

1. Blue: It's stated several times in dialogue and character descriptions that Red and Blue are both friends and rivals. Blue also calls Leaf his friend and rival during Leaf's friendship story.

2. Silver: Ethan repeatedly refers to Silver as his friend. While Silver usually gets mad at him/denies it, his friendship story demonstrates that he has complicated feelings about friendship in general, and he seems to come around to the idea of having friends by the end of it.

3. N: N and Hilbert both call each other "friend" directly, and Hilda calls the three of them friends during their summer event.

4. Bede: While he's never acknowledged as such in dialogue, in his Champion outfit's sync pair story, the narration states that "[the player] came across Bede and his friends", and the two people he's with are Victor and Gloria.

5. Adaman and Irida: When Lucas and Dawn meet Rei and Akari for the first time, Lucas says that Adaman and Irida told him and Dawn "they have friends in Hisui who look just like us".

Klara and Avery aren't in the game yet, unfortunately, so no evidence for them. Oddly enough, there's zero evidence in Masters for Gladion being the player's friend; Hau calls him a friend, but Elio and Selene never mention him outside of Elio battling Gladion in his Evolution sync pair story.

Of course, using Masters as evidence does beg the question of whether characters who are only referred to as friends within Masters should be included. For example, during Selene's sync pair story, she says that Janine is one of her friends. We know Selene moved from Kanto to Alola, so it's entirely possible that she knows Janine from before she moved to Alola. Should Janine be added to this page? Storm Aurora (talk) 21:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I would just add characters who originally appeared in the story imo. Janine doesn't really much relation in context to the original game Selene is from. TrainerSplash (talk) 01:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)